Psychoactive substances are just that. They act on your psyche. But it's the psyche that matters. I know lots of psychedelic users that are far from being good persons. Alcohol isn't an entheogen but every experience can show you things. Personally, I wouldn't call psychedelics entheogens. They can show you divinity but most psychedelic users that I know claim that they have never encountered anything divine in those states.

I know people who had experienced ayahuasca trips but they had never been healed. They are just heroin addicts who eat, smoke and most of all, inject everything they can get their hands on.

Think about it.

I guess in order to inspire the divine within you must be able to first acceept divinity inside you.

Nothing is an "entheogen" by itself..by the definition of the word the way that Ott origionally used it(which is the inspiration for psychedelic people using the term) it refers to the use of something in order to connect one with inner divinity or god...it has nothing to do with how healthy something is for you, or how psychedelic it is..and honestly I find classification of psychedelics as "entheogens" themselves somewhat pretentious becasue they can definatily be used in other ways. LSD for example is NOT entheogenic unless someone appraches it that way. Amazonian use to tobacco IS entheogenic in most situations I would say, while the modern act of smoking cigarettes usually is not.

See?

Same with tobacco as applies to alcohol.

Once again,

Intent is everything.

In all actuality you're probably right. Many of the times it was hard alcohol that was consumed, and I always had a hard time gauging myself. Which is probably why I had such negative experiences. I do think that alcohol (the kind sold at stores *not shine*) is hard to gauge in general. The volume of liquid needed to be consumed ranges on the alcohol percentage, so almost every drink is different. But like you said, intent is everything, so in the right context, I'm sure that some people have used alcohol to inspire the god within.

SnozzleBerry, sometimes people (myself included) that the present day people have their own culture too. All over the world, alcohol is drunk daily by millions of people. As far as contributing to culture: ex: The repeal of alcohol prohibition in the United States is the only Constitutional Amendment legalizing a drug. IMO, it must be a pretty important drug for that to happen.

Whoa, are you saying moonshine IS easy to gauge compared to store-bought liquor?

Let's not forget that taking shots, and drinking beer at the bar doesn't exactly equate with traditional religious alcohol use such as drinking 4 glasses of wine on passover spread out over the course of the night.

Ok so now all psychoactive drugs are entheogens? I've never thought of heroin as an entheogen but if alcohol is then heroin must be too. And what about crack?

I've never considered alcohol an entheogen. I've never seen it fit into spirituality.

You've obviously never been to an anglican or catholic church on Sundays! They use alcohol in their Communion ceremony. I guess that it doesn't enable you to connect with your inner divinity, it's all externalised. Another of the crazy paradoxes that is modern "Christian" religion. Anyway...

I think that it's like soulfood says: Intent is everything. You can take Mescaline at a music festival just as a fun way to get high, or you can use it as a sacred tool to explore the meaning of life, the universe and everything. I'm not saying that the person who takes it at a music festival to have fun is any less or a worse person because of it, the substance isn't being used in an entheogenic way.

That said, I've never seen an example of heroin being used to entheogenic ends. Maybe I'm hanging around with the wrong heroin addicts?

I do know one ex-heroin addict who became a born-again christian after meeting god and angels under the influence of heroin. But I think that was less about intent and more about latent moral programming.

Fractal does have a good point about the term "entheogen" having significant weaknesses. While I'm sure the term was meant to encompass the traditional use of psilocybian fungi by Mexican Indians, it should be noted that the traditional use of the mushrooms was decidedly not entheogenic. María Sabina didn't take the mushrooms to connect with the divine; that's what Catholic mass was for. The mushrooms were used to heal the sick and find lost objects. It was Wasson who first took the mushrooms seeking to have a transcendental experience of the divine (and with expectation/intent playing such a large role, that's precisely what he got). Similarly with ayahuasca, the shamans use it to call on helper spirits to heal (or in the case of brujos, harm) particular individuals. These spirits are not conceived of as gods. The very notion of entheogenesis seems to be a Western projection. We can understand the term if we take it to mean "shamanic inebriants", or we can understand it as meaning use with particular varieties of intent... but as similar as these definitions seem at first glance, there is in fact a substantial difference between them.

Well I actually never use that word. I just use psychedelics.

Haha sorry if it came off that way Banana, but that's not exactly what I meant. Shine is pure alcohol, so in theory there should be a set MSDS-like information for it. Such as an exact mL for an active dose etc. Not necessarily easier to personally gauge, just easier to analytically gauge, because it isn't diluted like store bought alcohol. Sorry for the confusion.

Easier to gauge, but also easier to overdo.

Though I find stronger alcohols much harder to get into my system so there's more likely to be a vomit reaction from smaller amounts.

I never really knew the God that existed in me until I quit drinking alcohol 3 years ago.

I certainly knew the Hell that existed in me while I was a drinker.

Alcohol an Entheogen? I have a hard time accepting any CNS Depressant being classified as such. I guess my definition of what an entheogen is is off a bit.

Read Pendell!

Psychedelics are mirrors. To some extent, alcohol always show you something about you but it doesn't go straight to the core. Alcohol doesn't illuminate you, it doesn't show you thing. Sure, you can think over some issues but you can do it also while being sober. Alcohol only allows you to talk more easily, to state some things that are hard to state while sober. It's not always a good thing! With psychedelics only SOME people experience ultra-clarity. With alcohol ALL people experience blurred clarity. As such, alcohol isn't a psychedelic and it's not an entheogenic substance.

Other then that, all psychoactive substances have a meaning, as a part of an alchemical process.

I find people have trouble connecting with alcohol due to the ugly nature of it. It has a way of showing you the thing you want to hear the least.

People who lessen its value due to its negative physical effects I understand to an extent. However as Ice house has said he certainly knew the hell that existed in him because he was a drinker is a great example of entheogenic effect in as much as seeing the dark side of yourself makes the bright side you find all the more strongly defined.

Not all of lifes lessons are a pleasure. Alcohol can be a very harsh teacher. The main problem is when people don't hear its message.

The only real message alcohol ever sent me was to stop drinking it (and I'm not an alcoholic)

Same here

Really, you people need to get to know Pendell's works. All that can be said in this topic is already way better covered in his Pharmako/Poeia. Every time I want to write something I only think about what he has written.

Yes, alcohol has it's purpose but just because someone notices his evil side because of it, it doesn't make it an entheogen. Alcohol makes it easier to behave in an immoral, corrupted way. It makes lots of people aggressive, horny and making stupid things while psychedelics almost always make me more reserved, chilled out and detached. Aggression, pointless sex without love and other such acts are very unappealing to me while on psychedelics. I feel wiser on them, more moral. While alcohol... well... it makes things easy and it has its uses but come on! I even feel repulsed when trying to drink on psychedelics.

Besides, on my first mushroom trip I was disgusted by alcohol and I was even not willing to drink it ever again which didn't happened. I think that I would be in a far better position if instead of alcohol I would just stick to guides that were shown to me on my trips. But yes, it IS social and it can be beneficial to some extent. Yes, you can prise alcohol for many things and many artists actually were alcoholics. But come one, it's not because of the substance.

Read Dale Pendell. Period.

I have always seen the catholic use of wine as an ersatz symbolic entheogen used to replace/mimic the older truer entheogens which would have been used in the older more in tune religions that catholicism stamped out.

I'll second that!

Pendell's work isn't in the same vein as most of the work on entheogens that I like (I tend to prefer books that are dense with well-referenced factual information), but his visceral approach to the subject is very refreshing. I love that there's someone who can take the soul of working with entheogens and put it into words. I'd recommend his Pharmako/ trilogy to anyone who works with psychoactives, or even to people who are just curious about the topic. I read Pharmako/gnosis first, and was completely hooked by the time I got to the second page.