Lol thanks joe but im just one more. Its us, we're all there, together

Police intervention just made the whole thing get more massive and the support from all over is very encouraging




And from inside it looks so beautiful, people are amazing, so many smiles and positive supportive atmosphere <3<3<3

Endlessness, care to comment on or correct this story: http://english.aljazeera...2011527232534667886.html ?

I tried to explain it here earlier in this thread about what happened with police action

In any case, first thing that is wrong about the title: There was no "clash" between police and protesters, there was a violent action from the police while protesters sat peacefully. The word clash is very misleading.

Also, 37 police injured is a lie. Specially this part is a huge lie:

"I can assure you that there was aggression against the police with rocks, bits of wood, blows, shoves, with violence, with sprays," Puig said."

This is the politician responsible for ordering the attack, he's trying to cover his own ass. Just look videos on the internet, including the one I linked, and you can decide for yourself who was attacking who. Also all the national press is for the most part on our side, which is quite impressive to see.

Any force used against the police was some isolated incident that is ridiculously overshadowed by how amazing 99% people were just sitting and receiving blows and still holding arms together with each other sitting down without any physical response (I guess its in the interest of the press to show how bad protesters are, to justify police action and make us lose legitimacy in the eyes of the general public, otherwise this might spread around the world). And I say this not because I would blindly defend fighting against police, I was in a very different protest earlier this year that turned violent, with people throwing stoned and strongly fighting back, and I completely disagree with how it turned out, it was childish action from protesters, just giving them more reason to act how they did. This time it was very different, the movement is very mature and people are acting exactly as they should, with very few exceptions

Also its not 84 injured protesters, its 120, 4 of them in very serious condition, one person was being operated last night because he had a serious injury, his lungs were damaged from police blows and was spitting blood, I hope he is alright. There were a 3 or 4 people with open fractures, and a dozen more other strong but not serious injuries.

Its good that nowadays with all the cameras we have all the evidence on our side. We are gonna get through this and history will tell who's right

Oh and, a detail but important: This isnt a protest about economic stagnation, this is a protest against our unsustainable system in general. This is beyond money. We want to change the self perpetuating unfair political system that does not require, allows for or promotes citizen participation, the corrupt politicians that continue being elected, the big corporations stealing resources and the sub-standard payments, the bankers and their absurd uncontrolled profits, economic help to banks but not to families, etc etc etc

I don't feel that police violence has been kept out of the press. Footage of the police violence against totally peacefull protesters who posed no thread at all to the police was aired on many TV networks.

I think the press doesn't know what to make of it yet. It isn't clearly a leftwing or rightwing movement.

But i hope that the defeat of the labourparty in local elections will make politicians more wary of ordering such violent raides.
Both the socialists as the partido popular must be feeling at this moment that they're losing contact with much of the younger electorate.

Endlessness

Thank you so very much for sharing this... It warms my heart and brings tears of pure joy to my eyes to see the start of a movement that is against our harmful and dysfunctional social/economic system. It is my greatest hope that this is just the beginning of a mass worldwide protest, for things too really change it needs to happen on a grand scale all around the world. So hopefully this will ignite a wave of protest movements demanding real change within our global community. <3


Much Peace and Compassion

I would remain peaceful right up until the time a police baton hit me......wish I could say that I was a big enough man to allow them to actually hit me, but alas I'm not. The moment I believed I was about to be assaulted is the moment that I'd start fighting with everything I had in me. I will never stand by and allow another human to assault me. As stupid and masculine and silly as it sounds I'd fight until I died before I gave into another human like that....or allowed them to do it to other peaceful protestors for that matter.

Ironically the police are hoping and hoping that the crowd doesn't really turn violent. Even 200 people with guns is no match for thousands of mad angry citizens.

I sincerely hope you all prevail with your non-violence...it is without a doubt the best way.

Yeah joe I know what you mean, or if I had my girlfriend being beaten (or just any girl next to me), or whatever. It's definitely a hard situation, but thankfully out of all the possibilities I guess it ended up the best, with support just growing stronger and people in general having shown in their own sacrifices how right they were and how wrong the police were. There is a group of judges demanding official investigation on what happened, lawyers working on lawsuits, etc. I think there will be in the very least some people fired, lets see.

So Barcelona team won the game and there were many more thousands of fans on the street celebrating this than there were protesters here (goes to show people's priorities). There were a lot of violent clashes between the football fans and police, but thankfully it was very peaceful with the protesters. So a huge human chain of interlocked arms backed with lines of people holding peaceful signs and banners was done all around the square, so none of the drunken crazy fans came in. It was full success, intelligent action and dialogue, which totally showed how ridiculous the police action was (since their beating up action was all done with the pretence of cleaning the square of dangerous material so that there wouldnt be fights with football fans).

Now the transition being attempted in the assemblys is to pass the movement from the square to a decentralized but connected movement based in each neighbourhood and local actions. Tomorrow there will be another voting if the square occupation continues for now till the whole transition is done, or if it is already changed to local assembly groups.

I think this assembly system is very interest, basically people will have the representant of each commision speak, then open round of words for anybody who wants, and the things that are suggested, the action proposals and so on, they are "voted", but not in the typical "the 50%+1 wins", rather with veto power too.. So if an agreed small percentage (like 10 or 5% or something) of people veto, the proposal has to keep being debated, even if most others voted yes. This makes it very interesting because it searches for consensus, instead of being the dictatorship of the majority. It works great on a local level, which is why its ideal to promote local action

One of the cool things that protesters were able to do recently was to prevent police from kicking out an old lady who's husband died and she couldnt pay the mortgage with her 500e a month retirement, so they would kick her out of the house, plus an eternal debt. So people prevented the police from going and made such a pressure that the company stopped the order to kick her out and accepted to renegotiate the debt

Just one of the many things, short and long term, that are being made

Anyways, here's a 3D picture of after the police had taken everything away and people were beginning to rebuild and gather again.

There are more pics and videos in the official page (also with forum, but in spanish/catalan), and then there is this video of police action, dont watch if you dont want to get angry.

Btw I read that one of the groups that started the protests in Madrid are gonna call for a huge protest the 15th of october, and gonna try to get it worldwide.. So keep that date in mind

Hmm...You know that story about socrates? He was sentenced to death, undeserved and when given the possibility to escape, he didn't.
The reason being that he felt morally obliged to obey the law.

I never understood how a man could be that stupid. This comment makes me see why: Spain isn't syria, a civilised nation isn't like syria or libya. In a civilised nation, the military isn't being send to murder it's own people. And you want it to stay that way.

Now, i'm not a person who likes power, although i'm known to often defend people in power on this site in all kinds of discussions on killing osama etc.

Some people may see me as conservative for this reason. What they don't see is that i'm actually rather on their side than on the side of people who like power, and that exactly because of that, i have to defend those people sometimes.

Here is why: In medievel times for instance, you had these farmers, people who worked on the land etc. They had to give the master who protected them, let's say 10 percent of whatever they grew on their land. If they would not do this, they would have ofcourse have been free men, but then there always would have been the risk of another master stopping by, demanding a higher percentage.

Protection is the first basic principle of every government and even society. It is more basic than all of the other things governments and society's do, that are morally of a higher order like providing healthcare or education. In afghanistan hospitals and schools are being blown-up, proving this point in an all too ugly manner.

If the government fails to protect the people, society fails. Anarchy like in unfortunately many places in the world is the result. Now i know that there are many people here who like the idea of anarchy, but if living in a failed state would actually be such a pleasure, you at least would expect there to be a ballance between people migrating to and from such places. The net migration result of failed states show that this is not realy the case.

Protection means, that you'd have to accept the rule of law to a certain extent.
In other words, if you don't want spain to become like syria, you're not gonna fight with the police, because then the police will have to move-up to the next level of violence and the point is that the majority of the people will always demand this of the police.

If the police would have been whiped of the square by protesters, then there would have been an immediate political crisis and the government would HAVE to move-up to the next level of violence, or they'll be replaced by another government that will.

In other words: if the police would have been whiped of the square by protesters. The next protest they won't be firing rubber. And there'll always be a next protest.

This is not the way i like it, it is simply the way it is. The far-right is on the rise in europe, and liberals don't stand a chance against them as long as they won't take a tough stance on crime and security. As a liberal i may not like it, but that's simply the way it is. Obama and Clinton never would have gotten elected if they would have said they where in favor of less cop's on the street and lower prisoncentences. That's just the way the system works.
As long as liberals in europe don't say they're for more police, etc, the far-right will win. That's why we need people like clinton and obama who're not the perfect liberals like we would want them to be and like some of us may have hoped.

I'm not a man who likes power as i said. I'm rather a man who likes ideals, virtue's or idea's, like most of the people on this site. But people like us, who like idea's need people who think in brick and morter and ballistic missiles, like clinton and obama to be able to live with those ideals and to be able to do something with those ideas, like what the protesters in spain are doing.

To be able to do what they are doing, they'd also need the rule of law and to accept this.

And then the rule of law is in the end likely to act in their favor, as endlessness sugests, with judges and lawyers investigating this.

If the protesters would have whiped the police of the square, rather then the other way round, then likely instead of judges and lawyers, a group of generals and hardcore franco worshippers from the partido popular would have been investigating this and eventually gaining legitimacy in this by their next series of electoral victory's.
I think that the victory of non-violence clearly shows that at a deep level these people all know that this is so.

Polytrip I agree with what you say. I'm not against power either...but I am against power that assaults peaceful protests.

Mostly though I just know me. My ability to remain calm, and peaceful would evaporate in a flash once I was hit with a police baton. I could sit here and tell you all the reasons why I could win if I allowed them to assault me while others caught it on tape...but me being the person I am would change in a flash once the pain was felt. I would not make the best candidate for the front lines of these situations because of that. I respect and admire the people that can turn the other cheek. I sincerely do.

I AM AGAINST POWER AND ALWAYS WILL BE. THERE IS NOT NEED FOR THAT. THIS SYSTEM WE LIVE IN IS GOING DOWN. NO MORE SLAVES , NO MORE OBAMAS, NO MORE BUSHES, NO MORE KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE. ENOUGH OF THAT

polytrip said:
"then the police will have to move-up to the next level of violence and the point is that the majority of the people will always demand this of the police."

I think there is a tipping point where society becomes ashamed of police brutality (American Civil Rights Movement, Ghandi in India etc). Those people in Barcelona were not rock throwing freaks. There is a limit beyond which people don't like their police inflicting harm on non-violent protesters. Beyond this point and the protesters have already won.

Those protesters showed amazing grace and restraint in a difficult setting. I imagine there are some anxious politicians in Barcelona right now. Sending the goon squad to attack peaceful citizens is not a good way to be re-elected.

You're proving my point: the public is against the police brutality because the protesters themselves where non-violent. If it would have been hooligans, it would have been a whole different story.

If you want no obama's, you're gonna end up with bush's. Or palins.

Polytrip, do you honestly believe this?? You talk about protection as though it is an all or nothing; it's not. Look at the history of Blacks in America, this clearly contradicts your above statement. Even if we ignore slavery and jim crow and look solely at post-civil rights America, your statement is incorrect. Do you know how many Americans (Black Panthers, Black Liberation Army, Uhurus, White Panthers, etc) were murdered by other Americans (FBI/Police) following the doctrine set forth by COINTELPRO? And this is completely omitted from any history curriculum. What about the alleged action of US reservists in New Orleans immediately following Katrina? Have you heard about the allegations "concentration camps" and abuse by FEMA and reservists? Throughout history the "protectors", as you refer to them, have been oppressors as well. Why do they protect? They protect because they have alienated or harmed a segment of the population to the point that there is the need for protection.



Whether you look at slavery (which happened in a "civilized" society) or the holocaust (which happened in "civilized" societIES) or the governmental response to the American civil rights movement (civilized society), or Bloody Sunday (civilized society), or innumerable other examples, your logic simply does not hold.
________________________
As to smokerx's statement...come on man, can't you contribute something better to this discussion? Power always exists, there is always a dynamic of power regardless of whatever political system you live in (even in the free association of anarchy). To think otherwise is rather foolish, imo.

And polytrip...do you really think Obama is that much better than Bush? I prefer him, sure, but at the same time, he is the one promoting an illegal war in Libya (and somehow trying to justify drone attacks as non-military action :roll, he is the one who signed on to four more years of the PATRIOT ACT, he is the one who got bullied on healthcare reform and every other "hope" he promised. Yes, he has accomplished things as well, but they pale in comparison. He and his buddy Gil Kerlowske laughed in the face of Americans who made marijuana and prison industrial complex questions the #1 issue EVERY time he hosted an open web forum. Are you aware of the atrocities of the Prison Industrial Complex? Are you aware of the number of minorities we disenfranchise by denying felons the vote? Do you know whose interests this is in? Your so called "protectors". Yea, it's rather nice when they protect you and your interests, but at what cost does that come?

Corporations control America, not politicians. There are countless examples that the power structure that exists in this "civilized" nation is one of oppressor and oppressed. You frequently argue in favor of America, yet you seem to ignore or be unaware of huge unavoidable problems within my nation. Don't get me wrong, I think there are many wonderful things about this country that I wouldn't get anywhere else, but I can smell the shit wafting up from under the facade of this "land of the free and home of the brave".
_________________________
The non-violence of the Spanish indignados must be lauded. The general lack of police violence is a shock. But this event is also getting incredibly limited global coverage (although France may have caught on :wink and what coverage it is getting is really misrepresenting the true unity of the protestors, imo. This is because the "protectors" do not want others to get the idea of what can be done. I will go one step further and say that, even if this was widespread global news, this isn't/wouldn't be possible in America. There would be police terrorism against civillians easily on par of any of the world bank/IMF, G-8 conferences regardless of how protesters acted. I hope Americans can see the strength in numbers, but even if they do, America is, has, and (imo) always will be an incredibly violent society and that always comes out in protests, whether incited by police or protesters.

No, i wasn't aware of all the things you mentioned snozzle.

But let's say i'm cynical about any possible utopic society or worldpeace.

I see the errors of people like clinton or obama. I just think that in this world, the way it sadly is, they're the best we have.
Any leader that would be exactly like you and i would like them to be, would simply not ever get elected.

People can make statements like smokerx, in more nuanced or even less nuanced manners, in the end simply rejecting authority or ALL POSSIBLE government violence at any time, but i would simply say to that: fine, reject all authority and government violence, don't vote for any politician that would not immediately abolish the police and the military, but you're standing at the sideline with your anarchistic beliefs and 99% of the people don't listen to you anyway. You're marginal and even if you where right, no-one would care.

If i have to make a choice i'm gonna vote for somebody who stands a chance against the people who realy love to have great power over others, and i'm gonna accept their authority up to a certain extent.

If it wheren't for men like clinton, johnson or obama, america would undoubtedly be far worse than it is, and the same is true for most european nations.
The partido popular in spain for instance, is the party of old generalissimo franco. If there would be no moderate liberal politicians in spain, like zapatero, than franco's regime would have been simply passed on to the next generalissimo.

So i'm a cynic about humans and society in that sense. Like hobbes i fear that without a government without any teeth and claws, humans will prey on eachother in a permanent war or seek refuge in the arms of a monster with more teeth and claws and less restraint in using them, than the government that could have prevented all this.

It's clear everywhere. In tough neighbourhoods people join gangs to be protected, in afghanistan people long for the taliban, in mexico the cartells terrorise whole cities and in iraq, many people long back to the days one of the most brutal dictators ever was still in power.
And in europe, people vote for guys like sarkozy and berlusconi because they feel liberal politicians don't care about their safety.

And as long as the liberals don't change this attitude into a more pragmatic aproach to power like clinton did, they will be defeated over and over and that could eventually bring europe back to how it was in the 30's.

I've only voted (and been able to vote) in one presidential election and I'm already sick of voting for the lesser of two evils. Obama had me excited. However, he and Clinton are both perfect examples of the right-wing ratchet of American politics. They (a moderate Democrat who is seen by many as a "liberal :roll get in office and essentially keep the political spectrum from continuing its rightward slide. They affect some positive change and maybe even create a bit of a legacy, but then they get replaced by a significantly more conservative figure and things slide back to the right. Also, let's not get overly caught up in the presidency as it's really just a figurehead that exists for the whole purpose of checks and balances. Our congress/senate now has tea party members in it. These are the people who make real-world decisions.

Power is an unavoidable phenomenon. Someone will always be in power; someone always needs to be in power, whether it's a supreme dictator or each individual within a society, the power always lies somewhere.

I'm not dreaming of utopia...I don't think it can be achieved on Earth. However, the entire corporate system has failed. Capitalism has perfected the race to the bottom. Capitalism requires poverty. Free trade wreaks havoc on global and local economies in so many ways, both financial and natural. I don't know what the solution is, all I know is that it can't be achieved within the corporate paradigm we exist in. Whether it's through the amazingly peaceful marches going on in Spain or the violent revolt that I feel awaits America, something has to change, something is going to be forced to change.

Clinton and Obama both acted/act in the interest of corporations. There's no way around this. American economics was trashed under Reagan, when the American worker had the highest standard of living ever. Know why? Cuz corporations weren't able to maximize their profits under that system (that's why he introduced the absolutely hysterical concept of "trickle down" economics). Under Clinton the US did amazingly well because of the internet bubble, which burst, as all bubbles do. If you actually examine the foreign and economic policies of Clinton and Obama, yea, they're better than their republican alternatives, but at the same time, they are not acting in the interest of the American citizenry. This right here is enough, to my mind, to warrant a scrapping of the system. At the point where special interests and corporate "needs" supersede the needs of the average American and the American populace as a whole, the system has failed and needs to be scrapped. This is what, I believe, Endlessness has said has motivated the indignados.

I would urge you to look in to what civilized societies have done to their populations. It's downright terrifying. More and more I see the US as a country that trumpets ideals while everyone cowers in fear, scared of setting a toe out of line. This goes hand in hand with the War on Drugs, which is a war by the American government (and governments of the world) against their own citizens. It's sickening to think that the President of my country laughed in the face of the populace's #1 question numerous times and then made it so that the populace couldn't write their own questions to ask him because he knew it was going to be about the War on Drugs. That's a MAJOR problem that indicates that it's time that, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed...with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

What are we waiting for?

Well SnozzleBerry you have just admitted that till now whoever was in power was only working for evil corporations and that's how it works around the whole world. It’s not only USA out there, it’s not only obama or bush there are other hitlers like these two out there that don't want anything else than Power and money. See if you say there was always a power and then you say that people safer cant you get 1+1 together? See the power out there is no good for people it is only good for those in power just a few people on this planet that actually own most of it. You and I mean nothing to those at power to those in governments. So if you wish go and vote for them but do not say to me my friend what I should wish for. My contribution is not important anyway cos whatever I say here will not change anything in my or your life or anyone else's.

Those people in Spain are trying to do something instead of sitting on theirs bums and talking. Go and tell to them that they need some power over them to tell them what to do. To me they look as they know very well what they want and need. I feel more comfortable to leave them at power rather than anyone else in that country. I am giving my vote to them.

If you red all the posts you would find another of mine there just in case you have not noticed but as I said previously it is not important what I say what is important is what am I going to do ... what are you going to do ?

I agree with everything you say. The system is quite rotten indeed. The word civilised is only a relative term. Compared to syria, america is civilised, but compared to the standards american politicians claim to believe in (human rights, etc), it is not.
Now, the problem is that revolutions only work in a positive way if there is a good alternative available.
If the teaparty is gonna lead a revolution that is gonna replace the old system, then you better hide.

Western civilisation is on the edge of collapsing. I think if there's anything we're waiting for, it is for people to embrace this collapse.

The end of a system can be the beginning of a new one. A new system could be better or it could be worse.
I think the likelyhood of a better system is unfortunately very small, because western countries have a relatively old population. Old people are more conservative, have less concern for the future, are more xenophobic and are more ngative about people in general.
If we want to have a revolution, we'd better have a little babyboom first.

Hakim Bay in his Temporary Autonomous Zone (TAZ) has presented a theory that freedom is never permanent. When talking about social upheaval only during revolution you can find true freedom. Never afterwards. Only when everything is falling apart, when there is chaos all around, when the system's cogs stop or seem to disappear, you can find yourself in a time between times. When the old age is no more and the new didn't arrived yet. It reminds me of the shamans and witches. You can find lots of references about their mediatory role, about how shamans are "in-between".

Hakim Bay is against political anarchism because he sees post-revolutionary world as yet another world of systems, even if those are federated syndicates and communes. "All defined structures seek stasis". I don't believe that better world is not worth fighting for. My experience is few years of an active political activity (see my introduction in the Nursery) so I'm always pleased and excited when system is falling apart. Even small lagging of the Matrix is something that makes me fascinated.

Do you know what I love so much about this revolt? It reminds me that any time, everywhere, system can fall. That you never know. Besides, each revolt is a sign of human spirit, of idealism that is thought to be dead. We think that money rule the world but in such times and places like Spain, Greece, Egypt, Tunisia and some other countries, you just feel that people ARE NOT passive observers idly watching as elites make their profits ruining lives of others. Revolts are like a simple message:

"We are alive and kicking!"

I feel a close connection between "finding yourself in a time between times" and the death/rebirth experience. I consider revolution (and war) as a manifestation of the same underlying archetype. I tend to think that wars are necessary until human societies learn to manifest this archetype in other ways, one of which would be entheogenically supported rituals (Dionysian rites?) where the common man could die and be born again in a culturally supported social context.