I would like change my life style dramatically I've had a lot of life changing experiences in the past year. I've had a couple of jobs over the past couple of years and I am now currently unemployed and living with my parents again(which is located in a small town: population 5,000). I'm highly skilled with computer programming and cannot find employment whether it be manual labor or electronic related in this town. This may be a pipe dream or possibly "high-hopes" but i have this dream that I could some how live on my own out in the forest that surrounds this small town and sustain off the land I have a small trailer for surviving & I do love my computers, so all that would be powered with rechargeable batteries hooked up to solar panels but I don't want to just squat on some piece of land and I don't want to live off the government with SSI or unemployment.

Does a life style with out all the convinces(flowing water, electricity, sewage) really work?
I mean yes of course we evolved with out houses, and toilets, TV, computer, microwaves and we can live with out them but suppose I made the sacrifice to just have a computer for keeping in contact. How does one go about his life style with out money?

Are there any good books or articles that could assist me on sustaining life in the woods or sustaining life in a "natural environment"?

P.S. I know its seems a bit odd that I started a "I want to live in the woods but I can't live without the computer & internet thread" so go easy on the lawls.

Of course it will work, if there is a will there is a way right. Although I think we may be past the point at this current time of doing something like this with no monetary resources. Not saying it will be easy by any means, but it can be done. There are many books and magazines that describe ways to live off the grid. I am sorry I cant quote any right off the top of my head, but I have seen and read some.

Maybe you should try living with a nice Amish family/community for awhile. They live without many modern conveniences, although they may shun your computer, but they are an example such things can be done. Although I am disappointed that even they will be seen at the local Wal-mart from time to time.

I think many of us have had similar dreams, but the lifestyle you are seeking is a lot of hard work, and requires to some extent monetary resources. Like you said you need some land to live on, and such. I think by living our lives in a sustainable manner, all be it with some modern conveniences and still hooked to the grid so to speak can really go a long way in itself. Recycling what we can, buying local(not necessarily organic, although that is good too), using reusable sources of energy such as solar/geothermal/etc, and other earth smart practices can be rewarding too.

Good luck to you on your path though, maybe you can trade/barder your computer knowledge for the things you seek, and cant get on your own.

Yeah there's plenty of info out there on this topic. From what I've read even the most hardcore off-grid aspirants tend to want to keep their computers and internet connection, so you're not unusual in that regard. Google 'RV living', 'off-grid living', etc. for multitudes of guides and blogs of people actually living this lifestyle.

There's a lot more to off-grid living than most people imagine. Do you have start-up capital for this lifestyle? What are your prospects of ever owning land, or would you be willing to squat (which is free, except for the ever-present risk that you could get run off and/or prosecuted at any time)? How skilled are you presently at self-sufficient living - can you repair a chemical toilet, wire your own solar panels, field dress and cook animals, etc. What skills do you have that could be bartered in exchange for any skills and materials you lack?

It can be done, but it's a dedicate-your-whole-existence-to-making-this-work kind of commitment, and personally I think the stresses involved would be more oppressive than remaining engaged in society, no matter how odious one finds it. I think the best approach would be to move towards that lifestyle a degree at a time rather than attempting to jump in headfirst.

http://ask.metafilter.co...n-an-RV-camper-long-term

That money is yours. You have every right to claim it, despite the shaming rhetoric of the right wing.

I've pondered similar ventures. Though my plans involve befriending a farmer or land owner - and hiring the land from him/her to build an enviro-home... over time of course, far too young to be considering housing now .

http://ecoble.com/2007/1...mexican-island-paradise/

This guy is quite interesting... I think there will be a lot more of this in the future. People are becoming bored and frustrated with everything being done the same way as always... surely, surely!

I too have dreams of living off grid and i wish you luck. Without start up cash to buy land i dont see how it can be done, other than living from a pack and squatting on govt. land. Even if you bought land you would still have to pay property taxes.

Ive decided thats pretty much a pipe dream for me. But over the last few years i have managed to wittle down my possesions to a minimum. I ride a motorcycle to save on gas and maintenance. I live in a very modest dwelling. I have a small garden and some yard birds for eggs(the best ). I can now survive working 25-30 hrs a week. Im not off grid (yet) but i dont slave away 40 or 50 hours a week at some job i hate just so i can buy more stuff. Oh, and i dont have a wife or kids, that helps. You gotta make sacrifices.

Network, do it.
Try couch surfing .com and tribe .net and all those places.
I used to know this guy in vermont that was the resident shaman for a huge plot of land with hippie houses on it.
If you met this guy and told him your deal, I bet he'd totally be down with you building a hut on the land.
There are lots of people out there like that.
Also if you're in a hurry, there's always rainbow gatherings to go to. Their message "Welcome Home" pretty much says it all.
There's no reason to start this sort of thing alone, you don't need funds to buy your own land (although that would be sweet).
There are lots of people at various stages of living off grid/ no money that you can find out there.
Good luck!

I have no captial, nor have i saught out land for purchase(have to take it one step at a time), I have some experience with electrical as in "i know enough what to do and what not to and can pick up a book and know how to get the job done".

As for everyone else thanks for the feed back i like the idea of going off the grid and im glad theres some resources i'll keep everyone posted on the progress.

once again the wiggle monster bursts through the crowds utterly uninformed of what has actually been transpiring before his arival with things to say!...first there is comfortabloe living and then there is sustainable living...i dont know where you live there are different lifeways in different areas, a fully off the grid requires no money...but solar panels and fancy special gadgets cost money and food costs money until you have your act together to be sustained wildly...i would first start by getting ahold of your native staple crops and propagating the snizzle snoz outa them (this could cost money but it depends how clever you are) if you live on the west coast of usa these most likely will consist of things like yampa, blue camas, bread root (certain types of lomaitums) jeruselum artichokes and the like..then i would supplement them with other clever staples and easily propagated plants like potatoes and daylilies and such...then your on your way...it can also help to have more wilder clever people to guide you, if you are highly commited to the lifeway and will abandon your current location without hesitation i knows a few folks that will guide you if you join thems i can link you on fakebook

well, the only way to live without money for you as you described your situation is to leach services from your neighbors or someone else. Steal electricity, get you neighbor to use a hackable wireless encryption for the web or be so kind to help him install it for that little option of you using it. Maybe you can also build machines for the electricity, an array of hamster wheels with with generators comes into my mind. Thousands of them....


Its either you work for money or you steal it. You can try the lottery too, with stolen tickets of course.


I also want to live in a romantic environment. Got to have the money for that, besides i dont want to stop working as long as i can positively impact my environment with my work.


Being a software developer can be an awesome job, you can pretty much work from a frigging treehouse if you have internet. Or you put in the effort, making a program that many people want and that sells well. If you dont know how to place your program/product on the market, theres people that know. Poking through that financial fence for freedom once and for all

What the OP seeks is somewhat of a tall order--and certainly involves a lot of hardship.

Idea #1:

But here's another interesting idea on the total other end of the spectrum: work like a dog, just for...oh, the hell of it, or the discipline, or the whatever.

Have you ever thought that, even if you worked only a somewhat low-level job, but your EXPENSES were very low, that you could save up quite a wad of money in a relatively short time? So do that (and it's especially nice if you can live for free in your parents house). Get, like, at least two jobs. Eat CHEAP (cook your own food), and just WORK and save all the money.

The idea is NOT to save it up to spend. The idea is just....sort of TAKING A STAND. It's off the "psychological grid" because you're NOT intending to be a CONSUMER. It's like sucking money out of the twisted economic system we have.

Then, having a nice chunk of money, LOTS of possibilities would loom on the horizon. No kidding, if you REALLY busted your ass--even if your prospects were mediocre--you could probably sock away AT LEAST $70K over, say, two years. Probably more like $100K--this is working two jobs, with overtime, for two years, and having essentially zero expenses.

You could take that $100K and buy a HOUSE, and RENT IT OUT, and live (very cheaply) off the income (or there are other small businesses you can start with $100K).

I DO NOT INTEND to recommend that you should enter the "rat race" or the "hamster wheel." Because you're not SPENDING the money, it's...SUBVERSIVE somehow!


IDEA #2:

Get a job like Desertphile, on youtube. He lives in the middle of NOWHERE (yet he's always online), taking care of somebody's ranch. He has a place to live, and gets a living salary--but he's essentially his own boss (as long as he herds the cattle into the proper areas a few times a year, and otherwise just "looks out for things."

There's actually a fair bit of opportunity in this, working for people who have "vacation ranches" or farms--so they don't live on them full time, and need somebody there to look after things.

I think there are "classified" type advertisements for these things online. I know that Desertphile found a job for his brother, who wanted out, for like $12K per year (and a place to live) taking care of somebody's sheep ranch--in one day of searching online.


IDEA #3:

Another guy I like on youtube, CultOfDusty, does something with "web traffic and porn," that makes him a pretty good living, and he wrote a book about it and sells it. If you want to be online, I think there are ways to make money from that--but they probably require a fair bit of time. You COULD do Ideas 2 & 3 together.



Anyhow, if you DID put together some money, you can live JUST FINE in an old pickup truck with cheap camper. If you have a fairly comprehensive cell service you can get online anywhere but extreme rural areas (and, I think, you can actually get antennas/boosters that allow you to use cell phones way out there--without having to buy a satellite phone). You can grow sprouts right in the truck, and you can live perfectly well on sprouts plus beans/rice, for extended periods. In much of the west, there's LOADS of BLM land where you can "camp" for extended periods in your pickup. Nevada is the best place for that.

The book "Radical Simplicity" by Jim Merkel is an excellent primer on what it takes and may give you some ideas. Borrow it from a library. Netflix currently has a documentary of the same name on demand. IMO, you should move toward your goal at a pace that doesn't invite resentment of what your trying to do. Following your heart might feel good enough to makeup for some of those lost luxuries. You might also check out the Global Living Project.

I am a bit confused about this. What do you mean by "the rat race"? You suggest he work like crazy and have almost no expenses (which almost seems like working for nothing). If you're working your nuts off and not even enjoying the money you earn, how is that not the rat race? If you're willing to work a zillion hours a week, why not just enter the rat race then, and make 3 times as much? In my experience, there aren't really any "easy" jobs out there. A job that pays less doesn't seem more likely to be a breeze. The important thing is to find a job that you actually want to do. If you like the job, then you won't mind putting in more hours. If you don't like the job, then you'll probably want to minimize your hours, and you'll consider your time off work to have a lot more value.

Also, be careful with saving. I come from a very frugal background. Saving can be an addiction. I think I might be addicted to saving. Once you start saving a little, you start saving a little more, then a little more, then you can't stop saving, and unless you're saving like everything you've earned, you feel like you're bleeding money. You'll become afraid to spend ANYTHING. You'll have money, but there's no point in having it because you're afraid to spend it. You just save and save and to what end? What's it for? It's not going to be there when you die, and you may or may not enjoy it more when you get older. You might not even live to old age.

I actually think loan and debt is a beautiful system. Yeah, you could work ridiculous long hours and spend nothing for 5 years and buy a house. Or, why not just work a regular, sane amount, and live a balanced life. You can still buy the house, but you'll just have to take out a bigger mortgage, and pay more interest.... but who really cares as long as it gets paid off eventually? You could still buy that house and rent it even if you've only put down a fairly small down-payment. The advantage is you can afford things that are way too expensive for you to buy at once. The loan allows you to live the lifestyle you want. The catch is you just have to pay back your lender extra interest, but again, if you're living the lifestyle you want, does the dollar amount really matter? And of course, lending itself is a profession that lenders can use to make their living. Both the lenders, and the buyers benefit from the system. The lenders benefit with money, and the buyers benefit by being able to buy things, or lifestyles they can't immediately afford. Of course, there is potential for the system to be abused, as the world learned in 2008.

Be careful about putting too much value on the exact number amount of money you have. The value of life itself is not measured in dollars. There are other things that have value. If you have enough to pay for living expenses, then I think people really should ask themselves what they want their money to do for them. If there's some goal you have for that money, then it's good to make enough for that goal. But to just earn more and more money for the sake of increasing the dollar amount.... it's not the best way to evaluate the value of your work and your life.

Plus, everyone is in a different situation. Some people are not in a position to make lots of money, no matter what they do. They may not have education, or profitable skills. In that case, some people may decide that no matter what they do, they aren't going to be wealthy, and then that person has to decide just how much they want to devote to their working life. Will it really matter if they make 30 or 40 thousand per year? Both numbers are pretty cheap anyway, yet both are probably enough to live off of. Would you rather spend 30 hours per week at work and earn that 30k, or spend 40 hours per week at work and earn the 40k? Depends on how much you like your job and your free time. How much value do you put on your non work life?

Apoc,

1) "The rat race" refers to working SO THAT you can buy things with the money. The same old crap that hundreds of millions of others are doing. I don't think he wants that; and I wanted to emphasize that I WASN'T recommending he try to be like everyone else.

2) My ideas were "brainstorming," meant to offer different perspectives. To most thinking people, most "work" seems like pointless drudgery. Why not ADMIT that, and then go ahead and do it just for a "number"--just to acquire X amount of dollars, etc. Do it as a discipline, a quirk, for no reason--rather than MAKE BELIEVE that what you're doing makes real SENSE.

I understand the OPs sentiments well (I think). What could help for someone like that is to BROADEN THEIR PERSPECTIVE, and realize there are different ways to think about things--it doesn't always have to be the same crap, over and over, for everybody.

hmm, actually got a place 10km from the coast in the mountains which needs some looking after.
Has a nice flat, fast internet, car. Southern Europe, its tourist season now.

Deal would be that you look after the house and property. Put some mortar on some spots, cut the grass, plant entheogens and what else needs to be done. If you can afford a flightticket (X€)and food + gas for one month (250€) we would find out in that month if we can agree on some income.

pm if interested

I don't mean this to sound mean, but if your goal is to not make sense, you have succeeded. It almost sounds like some weird art project that I don't understand. I don't get the logic of this. If you get it, that's fine, but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's the logic as I see it....

- supposition: The rat race is working so that people can buy things with money
- conclusion: most people do not like the rat race

- supposition: most people see work as pointless drudgery
- suggestion: admit that work is pointless drudgery and then do more of it for no reason.

If you are going to work for any reason, why shouldn't it be to buy things? If that's what the rat race is, then the rat race sounds ok to me. It's definitely better than working for no reason at all. And if you do see work as pointless drudgery, why would you choose to do more of it? I don't understand the motivation there. You say, "admit that work is pointless, and don't even think about the money you're making or not making. Just work really hard as a quirk." I don't see how this is supposed to motivate anyone.

I don't really like "the rat race" either, but what you propose sounds a lot worse. Instead of working so you can afford stuff, instead of working for fulfillment, you just work without any thought or motivation, for no reason, and not for profit either. Is that like a zen thing?



WOW!!! What an offer. If I was in the op's position, I would take that in a second!

^^ There are two burdens that one is under doing work:

1) The actual burden of the work. But actually, this is not much. Everything we do is..."some kind of work."
2) The CONTEXT of the work (usually, the REASON we are doing the work). Perhaps you like to play video games, and wouldn't at all consider that work. But if you were FORCED to play them at the point of a gun, for eight hours straight, five days a week--I think you would get sick of those games very quickly.

A personal example: the idea of working X hours to earn Y dollars is truly repugnant to me personally. But I'd GLADLY work with PLEASURE doing exactly the same tasks, just to feel I was helping out a friend. It wouldn't be the WORK that was bothering me (and, with the right ATTITUDE, one can take pleasure from MOST activities), it would be the REASON I was doing the work.

So...if one can alter the REASON, then the drudgery can be altered as well.

A good example might be something physical--cutting lawns or digging ditches. Most people would consider that HARD WORK--to be avoided. But then again, many people PAY for the opportunity to do hard work, when they join a gym and go workout.

So, a job digging ditches just to pay for one's rent would be a hardship most modern people wouldn't want to bear. But digging ditches as a way to CHALLENGE your physicality and OVERCOME your physical limitations, so that you could dig a ditch with little effort, could be seen as uplifting, and anything but drudgery.

The same can be true of most kinds of work--to utterly change your REASONS for the work can utterly change the EXPERIENCE of the work. To do work purely as a personal discipline, or to watch a simple "number" in your bank account grow to a certain point, can DISPEL A GREAT DEAL OF EMOTIONAL BAGGAGE regarding work...and drudgery.

I don't mean to "hurt your feelings," but I think you need to use your imagination a bit more in life.

I used to work as a video game tester for the xbox 360. When I signed up, I expected it to be he sweetest job ever. After my first two week contract when they asked me if I wanted a longer position, I was all "no thanks!" and went back to physical labor.

I totally get what ur saying, SWIMfriend, like whatever the task or activity is, just get into it and dig it. Makes sense. It is hard to do sometimes.

I have one friend who works as a welder. Long hours and truly difficult work. He'll work a job for a while until he's gotten 7+ months of rent/expenses saved then he'll quit and do whatever the fuck he wants. Does it work out for him? Somewhat -- although I don't think he expects to be happy stuck in that cycle for the rest of his life.

I'm definitely all about finding something that you can grow on. I've been teaching myself programming over the last several years. C++, Java, PHP, etc. I've got some wicked concepts for software pieces. Someday I hope to find myself in a position where I can devote at least 3/4 of my waking time to the project...then further down the road get some passive recurring income from that.
3/4 of my time would be necessary because I've found that when working with a computer language, I function best if I just totally immerse myself in it. Same thing with natural languages, I suppose.

^^ To make myself more clear, what I'm REALLY trying to promote is that people EXAMINE their lives, in order to try to understand truly WHY THEY DO THE THINGS THEY DO, and how they really FEEL ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING (and why).

The OP is obviously UNHAPPY with the version of existence presented to him by modern western civilization (and I STRONGLY agree with him). Nevertheless, we all have to find ways to LIVE--even in an environment we may find oppressive or adversarial--but we DON'T have to blind ourselves to OURSELVES. We DON'T have to mindlessly do drudgery and try to IGNORE how we feel, or TWIST our minds to try to pretend that we like it. And REALIZING THAT, it can then, paradoxically, become possible to perform some things that could be considered "drudgery," now that one's mind is free from the pain and dissonance of trying to AVOID realization of such things.

To FIND the right way to live, we have to BEGIN by being really REALLY honest with ourselves, and learn more about who we truly are--what motivates our actions and drives, etc.

And yes, as Apoc hinted, there's a certain subversive "zen" in "playing the game" of doing drudgery, while emotionally and "spiritually" acknowledging that it's pure crap--almost torture.

People end up twisting their lives in ENORMOUSLY bizarre directions, in order to avoid facing some simple truths about their life and their circumstances. One can sometimes find that just FACING THE TRUTHS takes away a lot of the pain and drudgery (and I DON'T mean something like saying "yeah, work is drudgery, but I gotta live, so I have to sell my soul in this culture" ).

But the interesting fact is: Truth (beyond just rattling around cultural cliches in one's head) is mostly NOT all that easy to come to know. One beginning technique is STOPPING the usual, typical modes of thought--stepping out of things, and trying to see with a fresh perspective. THAT is kind of what I was trying to recommend in my first post.

So on a practical level, what are you recommending? What is one to do in order to step out of things and see with a fresh perspective?