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MelCat
#1 Posted : 4/29/2011 9:54:09 PM

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SKA
#2 Posted : 5/1/2011 1:43:09 PM
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Count me in too.
I will sign and join.
 
Kartikay
#3 Posted : 5/1/2011 2:19:08 PM

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Easier said than done. To the nth degree.
He led a double life. Did that make him a liar? He did not feel a liar. He was a man of two truths. - Murdoch, Dame [Jean] Iris

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MelCat
#4 Posted : 5/1/2011 2:32:17 PM

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Kartikay wrote:
Easier said than done. To the nth degree.


I agree 100%, but at least this is a good starting point.

The world would be a MUCH better place without money.
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Kartikay
#5 Posted : 5/1/2011 3:23:35 PM

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The Zeitgeist Movement is the leading organization in this philosophy. I'm not sure why someone else is starting a separate group.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
He led a double life. Did that make him a liar? He did not feel a liar. He was a man of two truths. - Murdoch, Dame [Jean] Iris

Kartikay is a character role that I play when I feel like escaping reality. Nothing I say under the pseudonym "Kartikay" reflects any of my actual life or personal history.
 
endlessness
#6 Posted : 5/1/2011 3:27:18 PM

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Melodic Catastrophe wrote:

The world would be a MUCH better place without money.


How do you know?
 
MelCat
#7 Posted : 5/1/2011 3:34:33 PM

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Yeah, zeitgeist was started by Peter Joseph and once that got such a huge response, they teamed up with The Venus Project and Jacque Fresco and created the Zeitgeist Addendum.

It appears that recently, TZM and TVP have split ways. From what I can gather, TVP wants to create a major motion picture and Peter Joseph believes that it's a waste of time, money and resources.

If you look at the bottom of the page of the link, you'll see

Quote:
The Free World Charter incorporates some of the concepts and ideology of Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project.


It really makes me sad that they split ways, but ultimately it could be a good thing.

Jacque Fresco is only for the The Venus Project and won't really hear anything else besides that. Since their split, from what I understand, The Zeitgeist Movement is moving more towards any ideas and solutions that will bring a more sustainable change in our society, not just the Venus Project ideals.

I just know that our world is in a really sad state right now and I have a huge respect for any individual or group trying to promote and bring out change for the better.
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Kartikay
#8 Posted : 5/1/2011 4:09:58 PM

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yeah, they recently emailed members to explain the split.

Zeitgeist member email wrote:
Friends,

...

As many in the community might be aware, The Zeitgeist Movement is no
longer in partnership with The Venus Project due to Jacque Fresco's
interest to keep a more centralized focus on his work.

While TZM supports and advocates the concepts that encompass TVP, The
Movement's focus has now become more open and flexible in its pursuit of a
'Resource Based Economic Model', inviting a larger community of sustainable
perspectives and activism than before.

Thank you.
ZM


I think Jacque is mostly interested in the self-sustaining city model, not so much a social revolution.
He led a double life. Did that make him a liar? He did not feel a liar. He was a man of two truths. - Murdoch, Dame [Jean] Iris

Kartikay is a character role that I play when I feel like escaping reality. Nothing I say under the pseudonym "Kartikay" reflects any of my actual life or personal history.
 
MelCat
#9 Posted : 5/1/2011 5:03:34 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Melodic Catastrophe wrote:

The world would be a MUCH better place without money.


How do you know?


Sorry, I didn't see this post earlier.

I don't KNOW for sure because it obviously hasn't happened yet... but if it were to happen, I believe that it would level the playing field in a lot of ways. With the current monetary system, the wealth is only available to a select few. It's like a pyramid. The people in power at the top and the slaves at the bottom.

It's like the royal wedding that has been getting so much publicity lately. The amount of money that was spent during that wedding could have easily fed millions of people all over the world.

I strongly believe that most of the worlds problems could be fixed if we got rid of the monetary system. All of the companies who could fix a lot of these problems, don't, because the solution isn't profitable. Profit is the bottom line for the majority of companies. This documentary about Wal-Mart shows how human rights are completely disregarded in the name of profit.

When people say that there isn't enough money to solve a problem they are really saying there isn't enough cooperation. Without money, there wouldn't be as many limiting factors to find and implement solutions.

Bottom line, money is a limiting factor. If you don't have it, you're limited on what you can do, how you can live and ultimately, how free you are.

In a world where money is a non-issue, humans would be free to explore, learn and cooperate with each other without all of the judgments that go along with todays society. Just imagine a world where there is no rich and no poor. Just a big community of people trying (and encouraged) to find their own little slice of happiness.

I'm not 100% anti-money. I believe that it is been a very necessary part of our evolution and development as a species. However, it's usefulness has ended and is now very counter productive to us.

It wouldn't be an easy transition but it would definitely be highly beneficial for everyone.
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endlessness
#10 Posted : 5/1/2011 7:53:10 PM

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Yeah I dont know, its a bit of a chicken and egg situation regarding money and human social inequalities. Is money the cause of greed/dominance/competition or is maybe the other way around, that this lack of conscience is what makes money system be as it is. If people were more conscious, who knows what form organizing goods/service flow would be used, I have hard time speculating.

I wouldnt go as far as saying "without money it would be better" because that relies on the assumption that money is the cause of the problems, and not a secondary part of the process.
 
Enoon
#11 Posted : 5/8/2011 7:54:54 PM

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There is also the idea of complementary currencies instead of having a mono-culture of money. This wikipedia article talks about the book "the future of money" where this idea is introduced http://en.wikipedia.org/...eyond_Greed_and_Scarcity
I haven't read it but I read a little about it and it was mentioned in the "2012 time for a change" Pinchbeck movie.

There is probably a better way to deal with the distribution of our resources than the way we are doing it now. Whether money is really the problem or just how it is used in our system is questionable.
I wonder though if in world where everyone was free - why would people want to do any work at all? Why would there be doctors and scientists and people that do construction work? How would you motivate people to do anything? Sure you could say that ideally people would be interested in one or the other thing and find a profession... but really - if you didn't have to, would you really do construction work or something like that? Would enough people get higher education?
Also our resources are limited and if everything is free, who decides how goods are distributed? How can you stop someone from collecting more goods than he needs?
Just the initial questions that bubble up for me. generally I like the idea though. would be nice if people could get it to work. The problem with a lot of these systems is that they rely on the common sense of all participating individuals. It only takes a few people that don't have this common sense to disrupt the harmony; at least that's my initial feeling about it. would be nice to be proven wrong.

cheers & love
Enoon
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Aegle
#12 Posted : 5/10/2011 10:54:04 AM

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Melodic Catastrophe

Thank you for the interesting post though i agree taking money out of the equation of our society may help i think... Though the root of our global issues seem to run far deeper than the way in which our economic system is structured. We have been so far removed from what makes us human for so long i think that we not only need to look at the economic system within our society we need to assess the state of our entire society's consciousness. I have been noticing a shift and change in the energy radiating from our earth for a while now, i have observed the presence of Autumn and Winter becoming shorter and shorter each year. I feel there is a monumental shift of consciousness just on the horizon...

Though i see many are waking up so many aren't even slightly aware of whats going on in the world around them sadly. These are interesting times of great change and extreme adversity but i am greatly honoured to be alive at this pinnacle moment as the greater the difficulty i guess the more opportunity we have to learn and grow. Again thank you for this post, i can only hope and wish that this transition will be as peaceful as possible and done in the most mindful and compassionate way.


Much Peace and Compassion
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MelCat
#13 Posted : 5/10/2011 1:19:15 PM

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endlessness wrote:
I wouldnt go as far as saying "without money it would be better" because that relies on the assumption that money is the cause of the problems, and not a secondary part of the process.


I agree that there are some major flaws in the way our society operates today. Money might not be the root cause of the problem, but it is definitely one of the more predominant issues that needs to be addressed.

When I said that without money it would be better, I had the vision of the starving kids in Africa...

With today's technology there is no reason for ANYONE on this planet to go hungry. With hydroponics we can grow an abundance of food anywhere in the world.
If money were a non-issue, we could supply these starving 3rd world countries with everything they need to become self sustainable. Instead with the current system, we go in and strip them of whatever resources they have and make them slaves in the name of profit. It's really sad.


Enoon wrote:
I wonder though if in world where everyone was free - why would people want to do any work at all? Why would there be doctors and scientists and people that do construction work? How would you motivate people to do anything? Sure you could say that ideally people would be interested in one or the other thing and find a profession... but really - if you didn't have to, would you really do construction work or something like that?


We have been brought up to believe people are inspired by rewards or money. All of the people we have admired in the past, Michael Angelo, da Vinci, Bell, the Wright Brothers, Darwin, and many others worked because they were interested in problem solving, not financial gain. Just like us here at the Nexus. We learn all of this because we're passionate about it. In a free world, you are encouraged to seek out your life's passions.

We've almost reached 7 billion people on the planet. It seems like there would be enough people willing to do their part to keep everything going.

As far as construction work goes, Jacque Fresco has designed buildings that do not require any construction workers at all. 100% Fully automated. I highly recommend checking out Designing the Future. He explains things way better than I can. Razz

And from The Venus Project FAQ:
TVP-FAQ:#70 wrote:
In a system where everything is available without a price tag, would this eliminate incentive?
We do advocate that all people have access to all goods and services, medical care, education, shelter, food and so forth.
It is not enough to provide the necessities of life alone. We feel that our proposals will generate a new incentive system. Human beings need challenges in order to evolve intellectually and maintain a high level of curiosity and a need to overcome shortages. The type of education that we advocate is the intelligent use of existing resources and the protection of the environment.
The shameful thing about the free enterprise system is the wasted lives of many people - young girls standing behind counters in department stores waiting for a sale, men and woman working in industrial plants using a small part of their mental capabilities. In the schools of tomorrow people will learn how to relate to others intelligently, cooperate and share ideas to help make the world a far better place, and not to squander resources in wars and military expenditures.


Enoon wrote:
Would enough people get higher education?

If education was free and there weren't so many self-imposed budget deficits for schools world wide, I believe that we would see a huge increase in people seeking higher education.

Here are a couple of more entries from the TVP FAQ that apply to education.

TVP-FAQ:#92 wrote:
What can you tell us about The Venus Project's approach to education?
A high emphasis would be placed on education. The better informed children are, the richer everyone's life could be. Every child shooting up drugs today is a wasted life that you and I will ultimately pay for. Although books, videos, computers, and virtual reality would be used, most of the educational processes would be of a participatory nature in which students could interact directly with the physical environment. They would become aware of the symbiotic interrelationships between plant and animal life. They would learn by doing in a hands-on approach in which education and the communicative sciences would be brought into sharp focus, enabling the student actually to grasp the significance of physical phenomena in a much more concrete way. Above all, they would learn how to interact effectively with others, to share experiences, examine alternative approaches to problems, and accept ethnic and cultural differences, replacing intolerance with understanding.
A comprehensive overview of the history of all civilizations would be essential to understanding other cultures, values, and the forces that shape them. The generalist education, as proposed by The Venus Project, will enable students to gain a better understanding of cultures that differ from their own, leading to a better understanding of the advantage of all nations joining together for the preservation of life on planet Earth. With emphasis on a world viewpoint, it would be more difficult to persuade anyone to engage in aggressive, offensive, or belligerent behavior toward individuals and other nations. With this broader education, children would come to see that the Earth is a fantastic and bountiful place where all nations can share and prosper.

And
TVP-FAQ:#93 wrote:
What would the education be like?
Education should be more than the presentation of many facts to be memorized by students. The first aspects of an innovative education should have an emphasis on communication and the ability to resolve and avoid conflicts. This can be accomplished though an exposure to general semantics.
Although books and computers will be used in the future of education, an exposure to basic science is an absolute necessity. This would include an exposure to the scientific method and how it applies to everyday living. But most of all, science and technology must be applied with environmental and human concern, without which technological development in itself would be meaningless.
Another portion of education that should be emphasized is the contributions of many different nations to the arts and sciences that are used in the world today. The tendency to use education to enshrine a particular nation is more of a propaganda approach than the presentation of genuine information. It is not possible for people to understand other cultures without an overview of many of different cultural practices. No civilized culture today has lifted itself by it's own bootstraps. Instead all nations evolved as a result of many creative people throughout the world that have contributed to the arts and sciences.


Enoon wrote:
Also our resources are limited and if everything is free, who decides how goods are distributed? How can you stop someone from collecting more goods than he needs?
Sorry for all of the quotes to TVP FAQ, but they explain it way better than I can. <3

TVP-FAQ:#48 wrote:
How are Resources Distributed Equitably?
Distribution of goods and services without the use of money or tokens would be accomplished by establishing distribution centers. These centers would be similar to expositions, where the advantages of new products are explained and demonstrated. Exhibition centers will display what is new and available and will constantly be updated. If you visited Yellowstone National Park, you could check out a camera or camcorder, use it, and then return it to another distribution center or drop-off, eliminating storage and maintenance.
Besides computerized centers throughout the communities where products would eventually be displayed, there will be 3-D, flat-screen imaging in each home. If you desire an item, an order can be placed and the item automatically delivered directly to your place of residence without a price tag, servitude, or debt of any kind. This includes whatever people need such as housing, clothing, education, health care, entertainment, etc.
Raw materials for products can be transported directly to manufacturing facilities by automated transportation "sequences" using boats, monorails, mag-lev trains, pipelines, and pneumatic tubes. An automated, computerized inventory system would integrate the distribution centers and manufacturing facilities, coordinating production to meet demand. In this way, a balanced-load economy can be maintained. Shortages, over-runs, and waste could be eliminated. Eventually goods and services will be mass-produced in such abundance as to be too cheap to monitor.
Today there is more than 75% waste in the production of material goods. In a resource-based economy, all waste would be recycled. A priority would be designing things of the highest quality so that products would last longer and require little or no service. Many electronic parts will use plug-in components for convenient repair. There would be no planned obsolescence just to sell the latest designs or fashions. This would eliminate considerable waste.
Energy can also be conserved in the loading and unloading of materials in transport systems. For instance, instead of unloading separate containers, an entire freight section will be disengaged from a cargo ship and replaced with another so that the ship does not waste time at the dock during loading and unloading. The same method can be applied to trains and planes. There will be one compartment for passengers and baggage, which can be disengaged from the plane or train as a new section is loaded, so that the vehicle is more effective and conserves time and energy. All transportation will be operated electrically.
In a cybernated society, people will have more time for individual interests such as going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, etc. There will be many choices for exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation.
Professions that are non contributing, such as banking, insurance, advertising, marketing, sales, the military, lawyers, stockbrokers, etc., will evolve into activities that are more useful.


Enoon wrote:
Just the initial questions that bubble up for me. generally I like the idea though. would be nice if people could get it to work. The problem with a lot of these systems is that they rely on the common sense of all participating individuals. It only takes a few people that don't have this common sense to disrupt the harmony; at least that's my initial feeling about it. would be nice to be proven wrong.


Yeah, I know whatcha mean. We've got a long way to go, but I like to think that anything is possible.

Aegle wrote:
Melodic Catastrophe

Thank you for the interesting post though i agree taking money out of the equation of our society may help i think... Though the root of our global issues seem to run far deeper than the way in which our economic system is structured. We have been so far removed from what makes us human for so long i think that we not only need to look at the economic system within our society we need to assess the state of our entire society's consciousness. I have been noticing a shift and change in the energy radiating from our earth for a while now, i have observed the presence of Autumn and Winter becoming shorter and shorter each year. I feel there is a monumental shift of consciousness just on the horizon...

Though i see many are waking up so many aren't even slightly aware of whats going on in the world around them sadly. These are interesting times of great change and extreme adversity but i am greatly honoured to be alive at this pinnacle moment as the greater the difficulty i guess the more opportunity we have to learn and grow. Again thank you for this post, i can only hope and wish that this transition will be as peaceful as possible and done in the most mindful and compassionate way.


Much Peace and Compassion


No problemo Aegle, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

You're right, our root problems do lie far deeper than money, but I feel that a level playing field would be a huge plus for the human race. I too hope that the transition is as peaceful as possible.

I really want to start being more of an activist and help the global awakening along. I'm just really not sure where to get started. I've thought about buying a megaphone and just saying whatever comes to mind.

This is a monumental time to be alive and we need to let everyone else know it too. <3

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Enoon
#14 Posted : 5/10/2011 1:41:59 PM

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cool, thanks for the answer.

I still have to take a closer look at the venus project ideas.

One thing that I would really want in a society is the ability to follow my interests, being allowed to acquire skills continuously and contribute to the whole using these, rather than be limited to my degree or whatnot. The whole idea of being specialized and thus restricted to one line of work to me feels nauseating. I can't imagine doing the same thing over and over again for the next 40 years. I want to expand and learn new things constantly.
In current society this is pretty difficult.
But I think if the importance in life was shifted from acquiring money to actually living a high quality life and making this available for all beings (in one form or another) perhaps this too would change.
I mean without money there would be no reason not to accept someone who is interested in working in a certain field, because you wouldn't have to pay him.... interests and motivation alone would determine where you would end up...

I hope we get there some day Smile
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Aegle
#15 Posted : 5/10/2011 3:17:54 PM

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Melodic Catastrophe wrote:
No problemo Aegle, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

You're right, our root problems do lie far deeper than money, but I feel that a level playing field would be a huge plus for the human race. I too hope that the transition is as peaceful as possible.

I really want to start being more of an activist and help the global awakening along. I'm just really not sure where to get started. I've thought about buying a megaphone and just saying whatever comes to mind.

This is a monumental time to be alive and we need to let everyone else know it too. <3


Melodic Catastrophe

Oh definitely i couldn't agree more... Funny you say that check this out: Everything is OK Montage. <3


Much Peace and Understanding
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For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

The fate of our times is characterised by rationalisation and intellectualisation and, above all, by the disenchantment of the world.

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Aegle
#16 Posted : 5/14/2011 3:30:05 PM

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I have no words, put together with such eloquence its awe inspiring. โ™ฅ

Kymatica

Check this out when you can...


Much Peace and Happiness
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For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

The fate of our times is characterised by rationalisation and intellectualisation and, above all, by the disenchantment of the world.

Following a Path of Compassion and Heart
 
clearlyone
#17 Posted : 5/19/2011 2:41:52 AM

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Everything is indeed OK.

The thing about a consumer society is that you need to have continually unsatisfied consumers. Some might agree that our human-less institutions promote an anxiety-based fantasy which many believe to be their 'life'. Institutions in contrast to families or real communities which are getting pushed out like an indigenous population.

A good example is our compulsory public education 'system'. Removes children from family and community for 7 hours a day, most months of their waking lives, and has them compete with 20-30 kids the same age (that's not socializing, that programming).

They learn quickly from a system of rewards and threats - to fit in, solve the equations, follow the expert, remember these things, follow the bell. Don't worry when they get home the TV will tell them what to desire. Soon the age for work is reached. Since your good at following rules we will give you some cash for those desires.

The book 'Dumbing Us Down' is an excellent read if your interested in sustainability - even though its focused on education system.

We need to support families and small strong communities where relationships are long term and with whole person - not just fragmented skill for a dollar. The media promotes ideas that 'America is behind in Math and Science'. I don't know, but we are definitely behind in self knowledge and strong individually privately crafted character. I don't give a damn about a countries rank in global GDP or worker productivity. I care that my kids grow to be full human beings - and know, deeply, always, that everything is indeed OK.





"Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling, and knowing, they don't perceive the radiance of the source. If they could eliminate all conceptual thinking, this source would appear, like the sun rising through the empty sky and illuminating the whole universe." - Huang Po
 
 
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