Greetings all. I have a couple of questions to address in my intial post. First, let me just say that I am seekeing information because I was a huge fan of ayahuasca about 5 years ago, but I ended up with an acute case of drug-induced hepatitis that was a result of frequent use of ayahuasca tea (frequent = once per week for several months). The tea that my friends and I employed was prepared from jeruma and syrian rue. Now there are a few threads out there in which folks claim that syrian rue is the culprate of such toxicity, and the claim that caapi does not have these toxic properties is also thrown around in the same breath. Personally, I have seen absolutely no scientific evidence that proves or disproves either claim. Nor have I seen any evidence that any of the other various admixtures and decoctions termed ayahuasca do or do not exhibit acute hepatotoxicity. That is because systematic scientific studies on this type do not really exist at this time. Therefore, for lack of a better scapegoat, I am going to just make a sweeping assumption that syrian rue is a potent liver posion (just for the sake of brevity. I am a pharmaceutical scientist by trade and in no way endorse this as actual fact without the proper evidence). Now on to the questions.

A) Has anyone tried jeruma by itself, and if so, were there any pharmacological or adverse reactions noted?
B) Has anyone attempted to use inert oils like olive oil or canola oil to extract the spice in freebase form for per oral, sublingual, or intrarectal administration?

The interest in question B finds its origin in the fact that aqueous extracts of jeruma are all very red in color, and I am also concerned that this tannin rich dye-like brew could have been responsible for hepatotoxicity of the brew my friends and I used. I should note that two of us, not just me, ended up with bad liver enzyme reports, and there were no other drugs on board that could have caused the problems. The traditional botanicals (chacruna and vine) might be better candidates for safe use, but I am scared of ayahuasca now, and I really miss my old friend dimeth. One forseeable problem with an oil extraction is the final volume. It could only be efficient if a single soak were sufficient to extract the necessary things. I do know qualitatively from a small test sample that the red crap does not come out into grapeseed, canola, or olive oils, even with elevated temperature. The question is whether or not the end product of several hours of hot oil extraction is going to be good enough for adventure.

I do know how to get the goods out by other means, and how to do other things that I cannot mention on here. Just curious if anybody has gone this route before I waste time. Thanks.

There are many mysterious and elusive alkaloids in the mimosa bark, so I wouldn't rule that out as the source of the hepatitis either.

I've never heard of anything like this; even amongst people consuming mimosa/rue multiple times per week. Can you elaborate on how this causation was determined?

I've never heard of that either. What about unclean material (kitchen utensils used, plant material, water), is that possible?

Hmmmm,
Tryptaminister said-


Hep A,B, or C?

just curious, if you dont mind sharing.

Please understand I am not disputing your claim, its just thatt his seems so highly unlikely, soooo extremely rare to contract Hep in this fashion. I believe Hep A is the Hep of the three that can be contracted through poor personal hygene of poor sanitation. B&C are through blood blood contact or bodily fluid/blood contact.

This sounds very rare in any case especially living in a non third world country.

ih

The way i interpreted it was that he was using aya for assisting in healing hepatitis; Please correct me if im wrong

Okay, I will elaborate on the situation of the liver tests. First, I need to correct myself a bit. The liver function tests were within range (PT/INR, aPTT, albumin, billirubin were normal). The transaminase tests were way off the charts high (AST/ALT). The latter measures serve as biomarkers for liver injury and not liver function, whereas the former measures are for liver function. Therefore, the tests concluded that I had extensive liver injury. The results were the same for my friend as well. We went and had these blood screens done at a local physicians' office following the observation that we both had very dark urine, grey stools, and noticable tenderness in the area of our abdomens in the general liver area. Cessation of use of the brew returned the AST/ALT screens to normal within two weeks as per follow-up blood tests. I cannot remember the exact numbers from the screens, and I would have to access my medical records to find out, but they were alarmingly high to the extent that the phsyician who took the blood samples personally called us both and asked us if we were devout drunks or something. Trouble is, we were not consuming alcohol at all. Although the screens were normal after two weeks of stopping jeruma/rue tea, my liver actually ached for a good long time.

Now then, does this mean ayahuasca did it per se? No, it really doesn't. Neither of us had very good diets, and that could be one issue. Maybe we were just not healthy enough to use the brew? Maybe we had predispositions to liver sensitivity? I don't know. All I do know is that unless other people who have used the brew very often actually went and did these screens, their problems may have slipped under the radar. Also, they may have had no problems at all. There is also the issue of botanical source, because who the heck knows how these botanicals were grown and processed and how old they were? There could have been extensive alkaloid oxidation present in the botanical samples if they had been sitting for a long time, or there could have been significant pesticide profiles present in the source materials depending on their cultivation and nurturing. I have no idea. All I do know is that the materials were definitely potent, which tends to rule out extensive oxidation side products, and there were no other potentially liver toxic materials in use by either of us during these sessions. The only other common thread is the botanicals themselves, which may or may not have been toxic due to pesticides. I just wanted to get this one on the map so people are aware that there could be some potential for toxicity with these two source plants. 80% of the ayahuasca world is navigated by chacruna and the vine of the souls. Those may be the best choice for reasons the shamans know better than the westerners. For my part, I am extremely nervous to try any of them anymore, and I feel that extensive purification is the best way to go. I won't say that that is absolute truth in all cases, because I have no evidence other than n=2 from the same botanical sources to point at liver toxicity. Just keep an eye on your health if you use the rue and jeruma my friends. They may or may not be a bad way to go, and they are by far the most tempting ayahuasca analohues to employ given the cost comparison and alkaloid content of these two sources compared to chacruna and the vine. The whole plant matrix that is extracted in these preparations is something to consider as well. We used 25% lemon juice in the pulls (3 pulls) and heat (sub-boiling) which will definitely remove a different matrix than cold water or sub-boiling water extraction without acidificatin. I just wish there were some systematic scientific studies out there to show whether or not the stuff causes hepatocellular injury under different conditions and with different plant materials. One recent study was done with Wistar rats. The abstract says there was hepatic size increase and developmental toxicity of the fetus when pregnant Wistars were dosed, but I cannot access the article to find out what plants were used and other specifics. Does anybody have that article? Thanks.

Tryptaminister

Further clarification:

The hepatitis was drug-induced hepatitis, not Hep A, B, or C which are cause by viral vectors. I am definitely negative for all viral Hep, as I was tested for that at the time of the bad liver tests and since then as well. Negative in all tests for any viral Hep, and I have also never had a bad liver report since.

Also, I was not taking the brew to try to combat liver problems. It seems to have been the culprate of liver problems that emerged after its frequent use. Special emphasis is to be placed on "Seems to have been." I would like to know if anybody else ever had this experience or knows anyone who did. As I have said, it may not have been the active principles of the brew that caused the problems. They may have been grown with pesticides or something, and root bark would definitely hold some pesticides in its matrix. There are conflicting reports out there on syrian rue that state it is or is not toxic. All of them are hand waving in nature, and there lacks any scientific evidence to prove or disprove acute liver toxicity in any case or for any ayahusca admixtures.

The reason why I care so much about this is because losing the tea was like losing a best friend. I wish I had solid ground to circumvent fear and move forward with another recipe. But liver damage is serious, and I am scared now.

To the OP-when you say drug-induced hepatitis, do you just mean raised transaminases or actual illness with jaundice,anorexia, vomiting, altered stool or urine colour?

Peganum Harmala has been shown to cause elevated transaminases in rats but they were dosed frequently and heavily:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11976557

Just noticed your fuller post-I didnt see it whilst composing my reply

Thanks for the article corpus callosum. I'll have to try to get my hands on that one and look at the specifics. Looks like the rats were definitely getting heavily dosed judging by the abstract. In our case, we went for 3 g rue/dose as per a standard erowid recipe. Of course, 25% lemon juice changes the outcome of the extract, so who knows what other junk came out in the matrix? The jeruma was treated the same way, and as gobalswg points out, there are many elusive and mysterious alkaloids sitting in that jeruma matrix too. So I guess the take home message right now is that straight water extract might be the best bet on ayahuasca. The indigenous peoples of the Amazon have done it that way for years using chacruna and caapi. Indeed, other would-be water insoluble alkaloids in these plant matrices will be increased in aqueous solubility by log orders with the acidification process at hand. Though it is certainly more efficient in pulling out the goods, acidifid extracts for the purpose of direct oral administration might not be the best type to consume, in particular with jeruma and rue. Too bad we can't convince the NIH to let us do some systematic studies on this.

I've been wondering about this issue lately myself. I haven't had any tests done yet but I do exhibit signs of liver / gallbladder stress (yellowing of the hands, tenderness in the abdomen below the ribcage on right side). I've long suspected that rue is heavy on liver, just because of the strong heating effect it creates in me (which seems to get progressively stronger as the day/experience goes on, often resulting in dehydration if not watched). Any one have any thing else to comment on this topic ? Would a rue extraction be easier on the liver or is harmine itself the potential cause ?

IntoSamadhi - Get some cielo bro fixes the liver according to my teacher. These plants are both powerful, but different for sure.

This thread has been dead for ~two years.

Also, please refrain from giving medical advice. This can create problems that do not benefit the community.