You're right about the pinpointing thing.
But looking at men and women biologically, it makes sense.

Aside from purely biological functions, it's a well known phenomenon that men are often jealous at their childeren for the maturnal love they get. It's also a well known phenomenon that men are dispensable to women while childeren aren't. I have never met a women who got rid of the childeren from her first marriage, while i know of men who have lost contact with childeren from a previous marriage.

Also, who could argue that the reproduction factor would not play an important role in the differences between male and female psychology? And where could those differences become more expressed than in exactly those relationships that are a factor within the whole proces of reproduction?

I'm not saying that men and women cannot overcome the obstacles biology imoses on their psychologic make-up to engage in platonic relationships. I'm merely saying that overcoming innate psychological obstacles is not something the majority of the population is very willing and able to.

Why else would commercial advertisers so often appeal to the lowest primal animalistic reflexes of our species?

I am definitely in the a similar boat of all alone-ness. It's nice, I have lot's of quiet time to think and dream. It does get lonely though. I haven't had a relationship for over three years now. My last one lasted longer than it should before I realized it was very self destructive for me to continue with it. I had a few one night stands after that with some beautiful women, mostly because they were beautiful but also in part to prove to myself that it was still possible to find intimate connection with new people. Since then, I've been taking a break -- taking time to consider what it would mean to have a truly symbiotic relationship. Getting better at reading others. Getting better at reading myself. Pwning at online shooters.

I feel like a lot (most) of the psychological differences, between sexs are due more to social archetypes of gender rather than some innate expression of DNA. If it's possible to see past that, there is a possibility for a lot of empathy and understanding.

Ok, I want to look at this problematic from the developmental point of view. I think a lot of people that are here in this forum are probably not representative of the masses out there. On average I would say the developmental level of nexians is possibly a bit higher than that of the average person on a whole.

What does this mean? Firstly it means if you are looking for someone who is on your developmental level, which IMO you should, you will have less people to chose from, since as it is with every hierarchy, the higher up you go, the less mass is present - imagine a pyramid...

I think it is pointless to start going on about how most women are this and most men are that, because in most of these cases it looks like we are looking at the places on/in the pyramid that are below us and criticising them, simply because they are more populated than the level we inhabit. There's no way I think, anyone can ever have a truly satisfying relationship if the conscious development of both partners is not comparable in a vertical sense. Lateral is a different matter.

So basically we are criticising people in vain. We could just as well criticise a dog or a tree for not being a better partner. Sure these are humans that could technically develop to your level, and it's a worthy goal to try and help them, but I doubt it would make sense to try and engage in a relationship with someone you are trying to tutor. Communication, I've heard say, is only possible between equals, and at least in my opinion communication and contact are main reasons and ingredients for relationships.

So my point is, the women and men you are looking for are not part of these statistics; we're looking at the wrong set of people here.
Of course the higher up you go, the less chances you will have of finding someone on your level. Sucks, but hey, it's better than ending up in a inhibitive relationship that will suffocate your dynamics and bring only horror. I think it's still more important to strive for personal progress and cosmic progress than settling for something called comfort in a human being that can't even comprehend the totality of you. It's a waste of life's energy IMO and possibly not fair to either partners.

just some thoughts...

I agree with enoon. The reason why i was making the generalisations about men and women was actually to make clear that to be able to have a good relationship with someone, both people should have overcome obstacles that would normally stand in the way of true mutuality in relationships.
And that most people are not capable of this.

It happens a lot that women complain about men or that men complain about women. As long as someone is complaining about the other sex "all men/women are like X" they will not be able to ever have a platonic sort of relationship.

Careful...almost every culture prides itself to be the "best" and "most developed". It's all a matter of perspective. For me, a working culture is a "good" culture. And it works if it'S highly coherent and satisfies a maximum of its members.

That being said, i do not believe in the notion of biologically inherent personality traits. I think gender is more or less an idea, which also differs greatly from culture to culture. I could imagine that certain traits are more common in a certain sex due to hormones and stuff, but even the hormone level is different from person to person.

I'm more on the "elf boy" side of the spectrum, some females are more manly...so what gives.



My last crush told me something along the lines of "Why would you want me? I'm far less intelligent than you are" I'm a peaceful guy, but reading stuff like this makes me wanna punish people. As long as im in love i don't care about anything but cultivating this love.
She was even worried about her looks ..so ridiciolous. She could have had me as a three eyed mutant girl.

I'm sorry Elusivemind btw we are currently not helping you with your problem. I hope you'll find peace...

development of consciousness is not immediately related to *intelligence* however you want to define this. there is a difference in any case. But someone who says something like that clearly (to me) has problems that are not related to the topic of development of consciousness...

either way to clarify something - I understand why people might not like the notion of this kind of hierarchy; I personally don't always agree with it either. However if seen simply as a model to navigate the human spaces, it can offer some perspective, and if one is open to at least look at it for a while, I think there are some valuable ideas and perhaps even insights to be gained with this model.

But let's not forget not to mistake the map with the territory.

obliguhl, why do we say we're not helping? It's the only thing I have in mind. I wish to help. We can't magically produce a partner for anyone; But don't you think this discussion is worthwhile for anyone pondering the question of relationships and partnerships? I certainly do.

much love
Enoon

"Careful...almost every culture prides itself to be the "best" and "most developed". It's all a matter of perspective. For me, a working culture is a "good" culture. And it works if it'S highly coherent and satisfies a maximum of its members."

Do you actaully feel that our society fits that criteria though? Nothing about western society right now is coherant..look at our economy people are sick and dying due to reasons directly related to the way this culture runs..the planet is being destroyed and such topics such as clean water, real forests, healthy food, health care etc are constantly discussed with the possability that our children might not even have access to these things..how satisfied are people really? I see alot of angry people on a daily basis that dont seem satisfied iwth anything. It doesnt matter if people claim satisfaction with the american dream or any of that crap, becasue if they were really satisfied people would show it with how they act on a daily basis.

I agree with Enoon..I think there is a higher level of awareness/consciousness or whatver you want to call it, and when you are at that level of awareness your going to resonate with others at similar levels. It doesnt mean anyone is above anyone, it's not even about that. I find that people are overly careful tip toeing around when this sort of topic comes up in attempt to be humble(which is not a bad thing), but really if you think about it it's only due to how THEY are viewing the situation. If your not a crack addict do you really want to be with someone who is?..or an alcoholic etc? Probabily not becasue your not at that level, doesnt make one person better than the other, but they do in fact incompass vastly different paradigms with sometimes conflicting consequences..thats an extreme example I know but you can do the math and figure out what I mean.

I thought about this for many years. I spent 3 years alone trying to find someone I could even have a mutual conversation with that I didnt feel was dumbed down in order to feel recieved. It's not just the little things, or the big things, it's sort of all of it at once..if that connection is not there than I tend to wonder how long I can actaully pretend?..

I do think there is a vertical scale of development. Just like one can say a 5 year old is not as developed as a 16 year old person, some people are more developed than others. this doesn't even have to be in all areas of life, since we are all multi-layered and -faceted beings. But I do think this exists in some form or another.

Tiptoeing around and denying this, is IMO a mistake. One should at least consider the implications before one rejects the idea.

I agree! I've personally really appreciated this conversation, and I'm in a serious relationship. I definitely think it's an important/worthwhile topic to discuss, regardless of present circumstances or aspirations.

Finding the right person... hmmm...

Looking with some kind of desperation (neediness) for a relationship is bound to make one attractive to desperate needy people.

I have had several relationships and a few marriages over my years. I have made some pretty bad choices in the past. The choices were mine and I think I have learned through them. One thing I have discovered is that there are seasons in my life. When I have changed (for the better or the worse) then the relationships have changed and unfortunately they have resulted in breakups.

Most important for me has been to attend to either accept my own foibles or actually do something to improve them. The next thing is to just be my self and not conceal who I am from people. That gives them the choice to take me for who I am or not without getting involved in some kind of sick dance.

I think that the matching along the vertical axis that Enoon talks about is quite important, but also very important to me is having some similar life experiences. These create a sense of connection that I feel is essential for a relationship to thrive.

Although it may be possible for the plumber to have a relationship with the college professor it could be a challenge on many levels that may be impossible to overcome regardless of "love", "physical attraction", or whatnot.

I have been in a nice relationship for almost 8 years. We have common experiences and common values. Both of us have been to college... work in professional jobs of different types... not a guarantee by any means, but it helps.

My friend is an academic and her fiance is a musician. In some ways they speak different languages. But more importantly, their core assumptions about the nature of reality and consciousness, their aspirations, and their hobbies are identical. I think that one's occupation is rather less significant.

Such nice thoughts, so true and beautiful

Although, pondering about it i come to a conclusion

I should just go fuck myself!


Also, going with the flow aint bad either. Especially if one knows what one wants.

On the contrary, this is a very helpful and insightful discussion taking place. It also seems I'm not the only Nexian to have an interest in discussing this topic either, which helps not only me but others too.

ElusiveMind

Enoon



It was just an example to demonstrate why i dislike such hirarchies.



I was worried that Elusivemind would feel bad about this topic not being about his immediate problems. I also don't mind the talk that has developed here. Good to know that EM is fine with it too


Fractal Enchantment



No, i think this "culture" is a joke and the pride we take in it...at best arrogant, at worst very dangerous.



A certain state of mind certainly exists that cuts you of from a large amount of people. But i would not say that this is a "higher state of consciousness" ...we just made a decision to develop ourselves in a different way. A couple of days ago, i talked with a fellow student, who took up a class in philosophy with me. She was enthusiastically talking about how this class made her think about herself and that this "thinking about oneself" is necessary to understand others. I enjoyed that pretty much, but still was in shock, because i can't believe that self reflection could be something new to discover for a person in its twenties. But obviously it is.

Ofcourse you can say that one state is higher than the other. That is because what state you are in matters. If it didn't matter, then you where right.

There are pigs and there are snails. You can't say that one is better than the other, because how would a pig be better than a snail or vice versa?

But in humans.
There are humans who contribute to the happyness of others and there are those who only think of themselves. There are humans who can consider the consequences of their own actions and there are those who cannot. There are humans who take responsability for the world they live in and there are those who can only be destructive, who can only consume and not create. There are those who care and those who do not care or who do not even have it in them to care. There are even those who pride themselves in their lack of care.

And all these things matter. So one is better than the other.

^ yeah. It's like this IMO, some peoples worldview or level of awareness is in the end for the good of all. Someone who can see the earths homeostasis on the level of a holistic cycle for example is much more likely to act accordingly, recycling, composting, eating consciously and doing everything they can to live green etc..Someone who awakened to the reality of how our actions imprint upon others is more likely to act accordingly in that case as well, giving people support and love, having compassion instead of trying to pass more negative vibes around. It really is quite simple. Some people have realized how we can make the world a better place than it is now and make a conscious effort to help make that happen, while others are stuck in a lower cycle that is in the end, self defeating.

Assuming, that utilitarian views of maximizing the joy of most people are believed to be true. The fallacy here is, that at the one side there is the argument of people being "lower" than you because "what state you are in matters"....while at the same time, society isn't seen in such relativistic terms. While i certainly share values of peace, love and happiness for everyone, it's not something shared by everyone. Who gives you the right to decide what's best?

I just try to live my life the way i feel is best. Just like everyone else.

This is why.
1-Your brain is wired not to want pain and to judge deliberate actions of others that cause you pain in a moral way.
2-Once you accept the innevitability of a moral view and see that this is not just your unique personal experience but universal for each human, considering that every person in your community would be rational would mean that you can only establish a society together if you respect this desire not to have pain and so on, in others.

In other words. People with lower mindstates are not fully capable even to judge what's eventually the best thing for everyone, including themselves.
They like the booze but not the hangover, yet they have it every other day, again and again.

And this explains also why you wouldn't want to have a relationship with such individuals. They won't care about you or themselves, since they haven't got the point of caring yet.

What causes pain to one person, doesn't cause pain to someone else.
Some people even get pleasure out of physical violence. So they, according to your logic, would judge peaceful people morally. And yes, they actually do so.

"Who gives you the right to decide what's best?"

Well I guess I would say nature. Why?..becasue I am here, residing in a system that supports EVERYONE in such a way that everything I have outlined is a necessity when it comes to the long term sustainability of that system. If people dont agree with that then fine, but see that is where they're actions become EVERYONES problem. Why should I have to sit back and watch the future fall apart knowing that my children will have less becasue of the actions of a few ignorant others? People who dont want to live in accordance to the way this system functions concidering the times we are in are fucking it up for the rest of us, and are too naive/stupid/ignorant etc to really be making decisions for themseles in todays age. Im sorry if that sounds ignorant but when a group of people act in such a way that only a small percentage benefit while many others suffer and in the long run everyone pays for it in such as way, like what we see today with environmental/economical problems those people are usually concidered a threat to the safety of others and are locked away.

You can get as philisophical as you want about who has the right to decide this or that, what is right and wrong..but it wont change the fact that specific types of actions have specific types of repercussions..