DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 457 Joined: 21-Mar-2010 Last visit: 06-Jun-2015 Location: Nowhere
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/new...nce-environment-12811197In the BBC article: Quote:A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers. The data reflect a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation. The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one... Nonlinear dynamics is invoked to explain a wide range of physical phenomena in which a number of factors play a part ... One of the team, Daniel Abrams of Northwestern University, put forth a similar model in 2003 to put a numerical basis behind the decline of lesser-spoken world languages ... "It posits that social groups that have more members are going to be more attractive to join, and it posits that social groups have a social status or utility," he told BBC News. "For example in languages, there can be greater utility or status in speaking Spanish instead of [the dying language] Quechuan in Peru, and similarly there's some kind of status or utility in being a member of a religion or not." ... "In a large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend that folk are identifying themselves as non-affiliated with religion; in the Netherlands the number was 40%, and the highest we saw was in the Czech Republic, where the number was 60%," Dr Wiener said. The team then applied their nonlinear dynamics model, adjusting parameters for the relative social and utilitarian merits of membership of the "non-religious" category. They found, in a study published online, that those parameters were similar across all the countries studied, suggesting that similar behaviour drives the mathematics in all of them. And in all the countries, the indications were that religion was headed toward extinction. "I think it's a suggestive result," Dr Wiener said. "It's interesting that a fairly simple model captures the data, and if those simple ideas are correct, it suggests where this might be going. "Obviously much more complicated things are going on with any one individual, but maybe a lot of that averages out." I'm not shocked that contemporary religious practices are not enough for some, and though I highly doubt that religious beliefs in general will ever actually die off completely, we will undoubtedly see a swift of religiously affiliated to unaffiliated individuals. Thoughts? Surprised? Think this is full of ****? Do not listen to anything, "Steely" says. He is a made up character that his owner likes to role play with. His owner is very delusional and everything he says is completely untrue and ridiculous.
Hate is the choice of a clouded mind.
-"It takes humility to remember who we are"-
"There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it." - Buddha
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 191 Joined: 09-Sep-2010 Last visit: 09-Jun-2014
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Traditional religious beliefs and practices are dying. Polls tell it like it is. But what people like Richard Dawkins won't tell you, is that the same polls say people are switching those beliefs for other spiritual beliefs and practices. New age type beliefs(and there are alot) have been growing dramatically since the 70's. In short, traditional religious belief is NOT being traded in for atheism.
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analytical chemist
  
Posts: 7463 Joined: 21-May-2008 Last visit: 03-Mar-2024 Location: the lab
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spirituality as a subjective observance will never die, but religion as an institution of a belief system is antiquated and seriously flawed. it should've died a long time ago. we're in the midst of a new renaissance. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 457 Joined: 21-Mar-2010 Last visit: 06-Jun-2015 Location: Nowhere
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Elf Machine wrote:people are switching those beliefs for other spiritual beliefs and practices. New age type beliefs(and there are alot) have been growing dramatically since the 70's. In short, traditional religious belief is NOT being traded in for atheism. Marking yourself as a non-affiliate can mean many different things, as the BBC article states, obviously matters are much more complicated within the mind of each individual. The poll they are linking to states people are now more often than not, choosing not to affiliate with any religious belief, atheism possibly being one of those beliefs to choose from on the census form. Even so, no one said anything about atheism. Do not listen to anything, "Steely" says. He is a made up character that his owner likes to role play with. His owner is very delusional and everything he says is completely untrue and ridiculous.
Hate is the choice of a clouded mind.
-"It takes humility to remember who we are"-
"There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it." - Buddha
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 191 Joined: 09-Sep-2010 Last visit: 09-Jun-2014
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Steely wrote: The poll they are linking to states people are now more often than not, choosing not to affiliate with any religious belief, atheism possibly being one of those beliefs to choose from on the census form. Even so, no one said anything about atheism. Sorry, I wasn't referring to that poll. In fact, I never even read it. I was referring to other polls and research done on the subject. It's a phenomenon regularly examined in religious studies.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 328 Joined: 17-Sep-2010 Last visit: 30-Apr-2020 Location: Pacific Northwest
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If, indeed, people of the world are becoming more comfortable with not knowing, not being convinced of religious or spiritual dogma, than that is quite a hopeful thing. L "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard P. Feynman
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1096 Joined: 11-Jun-2009 Last visit: 02-Apr-2024 Location: Budapest
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I think if religion really disappears, then
a) something should come to its place which gives comparable guidance and emotional support (a framework for existence)
OR
b) people should wake up to their own sovereignty so there is no need for an external spiritual support system any more
I think that (a) won't happen (there is nothing comparably deep, everything that remains is just "words" for a brain to understand - with the possible exception of art).
As for (b), I dream of a world where people all have individual ways of connecting to the divine, and this is not a reason for war, but an expression and celebration of the billion-faceted nature of God. But this would need a 2012-type event (worldwide soul-conversion and awakening).
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4733 Joined: 30-May-2008 Last visit: 13-Jan-2019 Location: inside moon caverns
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Quote:a) something should come to its place which gives comparable guidance and emotional support (a framework for existence) It's already there and called "Science".
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2354 Joined: 24-Jan-2010 Last visit: 21-Jun-2012 Location: Massachusetts
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A number (two off the top of my head) of problems come from extrapolating from this study. First, we find the complete opposite going on in the global south ( additional source). Second, all of the countries surveyed are WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich & Democratic). As the global depression continues, I would bet that we see a large reversal of this trend within these countries. PK Dick is to LSD as HP Lovecraft is to Mushrooms
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Posts: 981 Joined: 24-Dec-2009 Last visit: 13-Oct-2022
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Is our reality not amazing enough as it is without irrational belief? I have no idea why people have such a beef with science, what is a claim without evidence? Why is blind faith a virtue? Science is worth its mass in knowledge.
“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4733 Joined: 30-May-2008 Last visit: 13-Jan-2019 Location: inside moon caverns
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I have no "beef" with science. It's a great tool to map our 3D space and, to a certain degree, predict things. It's just no good to explain everything. I also refuse the primacy of ratio.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 259 Joined: 08-Oct-2010 Last visit: 06-May-2024 Location: Gallifrey
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xtechre wrote:Is our reality not amazing enough as it is without irrational belief?
I have no idea why people have such a beef with science, what is a claim without evidence?
Why is blind faith a virtue?
Science is worth its mass in knowledge. I agree that science and rationality are extremely useful and necessary if the human race wishes to continue on its path toward knowledge, but irrationality is just as important. We are irrational creatures and our irrational beliefs are what lead us to rational thought. Irrationality supplies us with creativity and the ability to think in non-linear ways. Who has the power to even decide what is irrational and what isn't. Rationality only exists as a construct of society that is maintained by our consensus. Thousands of years ago, some much of our knowledge would have been considered irrational by the majority of people. To us it is rational because we understand the framework on which our knowledge has been built, but without this framework it is all just gibberish. In this way, what we see as irrational could just be knowledge that we have not yet built up to. There might come a day when we have logically proven the existence of God(s), ghosts, etc, or maybe not. I just don't think it is a good idea to shut out a possibly infinite amount of knowledge just because we feel that it is impossible right now. To me that is the exact definition of ignorance. Still, I don't don't think we should or should not accept some things on blind faith. We should definitely keep an open mind though and be willing embrace new ideas that go against the current paradigms while being equally as willing to let go of possibly antiquated ideas. Maay-yo-naze!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 191 Joined: 09-Sep-2010 Last visit: 09-Jun-2014
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xtechre wrote:Is our reality not amazing enough as it is without irrational belief? Traditional religion is irrational but why must a longing for spiritual belief and practice be irrational? xtechre wrote:I have no idea why people have such a beef with science Because science doesn't explain philosophical questions like what it means to be human. xtechre wrote:Science is worth its mass in knowledge. But that's all it is. Computers have massive databases of knowledge but they don't behave like us. Science doesn't cultivate love or a sense to help the suffering, a starving child, an injured dog, or a desire prevent injustice.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 259 Joined: 08-Oct-2010 Last visit: 06-May-2024 Location: Gallifrey
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If we were totally scientific and rational we would have to be without emotion and possibly without empathy or morality. And isn't desire for non-essential items irrational. Well, we already have enough knowledge to easily survive, so gaining more knowledge is somewhat superfluous. I guess the the desire for knowledge is irrational, yet I don't see rational people saying that the quest for knowledge should be stopped. Maay-yo-naze!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 3335 Joined: 04-Mar-2010 Last visit: 08-Mar-2024
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xtechre wrote:Is our reality not amazing enough as it is without irrational belief?
I have no idea why people have such a beef with science, what is a claim without evidence?
Why is blind faith a virtue?
Science is worth its mass in knowledge. "Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world. All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." - Albert Einstein gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 12340 Joined: 12-Nov-2008 Last visit: 02-Apr-2023 Location: pacific
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^ I like that quote. I think there is alot that science as it is currently adhered to is missing. "Sciene" as a thing is not flawed, since science is something that will probabily always be shrouded in part darkness within in mind of man. We can use what we do know within it's framework as useful tools, but our current level of popular scientific understanding(as it is accepted) I personally think is lacking. Long live the unwoke.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1096 Joined: 11-Jun-2009 Last visit: 02-Apr-2024 Location: Budapest
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I find it very difficult to articulate why I feel that science is not enough, why I feel that it is rather shallow compared to the depths of religion. All I have is my experience: once on LSD I saw and understood how religion forms a kind of vessel for certain spiritual energies, and I saw that its rituals are completely understandable and "rational" when seen from the spiritual perspective.
I also saw that without this deeper understanding, religion can only be seen as a random selection of cultural artifacts, and the deeper meaning cannot be grasped with the tools of the lower world.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 190 Joined: 24-Jan-2011 Last visit: 21-Mar-2013 Location: My body for now
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Logic Experience Reality Reason Rationality Awareness These are all words that have changed from there etymological inception to their present day meaning. All started with a multi-valent meaning, and began to transform into a bi-valent meaning in the 1400's. So, the Renaissance was more of a leap backwards than forwards, but part of the path none the less. The truth of the matter is that we have a very narrow view of what is true and what is false. The curse of modern day; post-modernism, science and religion is that it is primarily a bi-valent system, A is true ,or A is false. We perceive this time in this fashion - logic, reason, rationality, etc... through a bi-valent lens, which is a concept and nothing more. The concept is flawed because A is true, and sometimes, or partially false. It is not a matter of right or wrong, black or white, and that seems to be what everyone is hung up on in this post-modern world, including myself - which I am working to overcome. Just my thoughts on the topic. Religion isn't dying it is simply shedding the crap, and it is crap that an institution based on a particular world view has the market rights to "religion" and what it is. Check out Terry Jones, "Barbarians" as an excellent example of the hi-jacking of our world, our history, and our minds. People are simply beginning to see that the narratives have been twisted to a purpose that has nothing to do with what is true. The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 992 Joined: 10-Dec-2010 Last visit: 24-Oct-2023 Location: Earth's atmosphere
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benzyme wrote:spirituality as a subjective observance will never die, but religion as an institution of a belief system is antiquated and seriously flawed. it should've died a long time ago. we're in the midst of a new renaissance. Nicely put Benzyme Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna
All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
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