dg wrote:
tons of proof that mescaline is fine at well above boiling temps, are you concerned about the "other alkaloids"?
my understanding is that it is very stable but at high or low pH at high temps it can cycle from a PEA to an Isoquinoline, likewise other PEAs found in these plants, like variations on DMPEA like 3,4-DMPEA, can also cycle into Isoquinolines. This can be done a number of ways, one of which is the Pictet–Spengler reaction and is more likely to occur in hot acid conditions, this is known as Pictet-Spengler tetrahydroisoquinoline synthesis and uses PEAs as a substrate.
Typically isoquinolines also undergo oxidation reactions to form a dark color, for example bananas contain Dopamine, which is enzymatically cycled into isoquinolines, which oxidizes and cause the browning reaction on the banana peels. It is a widespread observation that a longer brewing time results in less subjective activity and is associated with a browning reaction that is indicative of the oxidation of isoquinolines, many of which would not be recoverable in any of the predominant extraction methods being employed today. The only clear evidence of such a reaction would be that the brew becomes less active, ergo a 15 minute boil results in a more potent product than a 3 hour boil, and likewise the brew will turn from green color to brown to dark brown.
If someone just went STB with fresh or dried cactus and skipped the boiling step then they would minimize the chance of a PEA cycling into an isoquinoline, such extraction methods should result in better yields than methods involving prolonged boiling. In cases of boiling the surface of the container may also exceed boiling temperature by a great deal, this results in a rolling boil where water in contact with the container turns to vapor very quickly, this is because the surface of the container is much hotter than the vapor temp of water, which is the same as boiling temp.
If I am not mistaken Nor-Weberine has been found in some Trichocereus, a well known active macrogonus clone was found to contain a decent amount.
Then there is the Health Canada testing, also unpublished, showing mescaline to be present in a peruvianus product at a concentration of 0.056% dry weight, this was the second most abundant alkaloid in the study, which also found 8 unknown PEAs and 3 others unidentified alkaloids one of which was the major alkaloid.
I'd like to point out that mescaline is 3,4,5-TMeO-PEA, if it is cycled into a isoquinoline it would be 6,7,8 TMeO-Isoquinoline, this has the name of Anhalinine.
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what other alkaloids in Specific do people think they are getting? at what temperatures or in what environments do they degrade? maybe hot acidic "simmers" ruin or change some of them? and if so, into what???
As the Health Canada study shows, often people get alkaloids that are totally unknown to science. While many forms like bridgesii selections can have mescaline in decent amounts and have only traces of anything else, it is not uncommon for peruvianoid and macrogonus selections to have other alkaloids in fairly decent amounts. Isoquinolines and tyramine variations seem to be the most common.
When you consider the types and effects of cacti recognized by the Andean Cultures it is clear that mescaline is not the only active agent in these cacti, several forms were associated with paralysis and seeming unconsciousness at high doses (perhaps indicating a sedative isoquinoline or even candicine or a variant upon it) , others were associated with healing (perhaps indicating hordenine and tyramine) and others were known to provide a brilliantly colored intoxication (perhaps indicating mescaline).
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are these the alkaloids causing the subjective differences noted between resin and pure extracts/types and strains of cacti?
who knows-so little real research has been done
A lot of research is actually planned or underway, likewise a lot of information has come to light in the last 3 years than is not online or in publication. I have learned a lot in private conversations regarding this topic and will not provide references here. It is my understanding that the knowledge of this topic that is present online is largely outdated and often misinformed, but since most of the data being passed around in 30+ years old then that makes sense.
One can take mescaline salts and put them into an acidic solution and heat them up for awhile (concentrate the acidic solution using heat and evaportation) and watch the solution change color and turn brown, then re-extract and check your yield. It is a simple and easy experiment to perform, using nothing but mescaline salts, heat, water and acid you can create a brown color in the solution where there was none before. More heat and more time result in more brown and eventually it will all be lost. It is rather stable but still somewhat reactive.
Try it and see for yourself.