We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Calcium bufotenin vs. freebase bufotenin (and crude calcium bufotenin extraction) Options
 
Saltydawg
#1 Posted : 2/28/2011 9:33:43 AM

pppfff


Posts: 26
Joined: 20-Feb-2011
Last visit: 08-Mar-2011
Location: United States - Midwest
Does anybody have any experience with calcium bufotenin?

I am reffering to this experience I found in erowid. According to the author, calcium bufotenin and freebase bufotenin have noticeably different effects. The Author says he prefers calcium bufotenin. Here's the extraction process in his words:
Quote:
So I played around quite a bit and finally invented my own very extraction technique. Here’s how it’s done. Boil the powdered beans in water made pH 3 with hydrochloric acid for about an hour, and then filter out the beans, and repeat 2 more times with new water, also made pH 3 with hydrochloric acid. Concentrate the combined water extracts down and evaporate to leave some solid brownish gunk. Weigh this gunk and measure out an equal portion of calcium hydroxide (the same pickling lime used to make Yopo and Vilca snuff!).

Dissolve the gunk in a small amount of isopropyl alcohol, just enough to make it a thick syrupy liquid, then add an equal portion of water, then mix in the calcium hydroxide. Mix it very well. You don’t want any clumps. It should be the consistency of thick pea soup. Let it sit for about 6 hours for the calcium hydroxide to react with the bufotenine, creating the basic salt calcium bufotenate. Now evaporate it (you can use an oven at 300 F for this step). Once it’s evaporated completely add a generous portion of acetone. Mix it well. The acetone won’t dissolve any of the calcium hydroxide, or much else, but will easily dissolve the calcium bufotenate. Let it sit an hour or more for the non-soluble particles to sink to the bottom, once the acetone takes on a clear dark amber color, poor your mix through a filter to obtain the acetone.

You can repeat the acetone extraction with new acetone a few more times until its clear. Evaporate the combined acetone to get an extremely potent extract that is nearly 90% pure calcium bufotenine, which is one of the most potent forms of bufotenine. It’s the form found in properly make Yopo and Vilca snuff that has been used for thousands of years in South America. It’s more psychoactive than free-base bufotenine and much more psychoactive than the acidic salt form found in the unprocessed beans.


I'd like to know If anybody else on this board have experience with calcium bufotenin. Answers will help SWIM decide what tek he's going to use. This one looks very promising but SWIM is no chemist and needs second opinions.

SWIM is surprised he hasn't seen this tek on the nexus before.
I am a saltydawg using my master's computer posting fictional posts for another saltydawg that lives in a different country.
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
endlessness
#2 Posted : 2/28/2011 12:08:17 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 14191
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 28-Nov-2024
Location: Jungle
There is no proof calcium bufotenine (or bufotenate) exists at all, so far its just speculation AFAIK and results dont seem very reproducible. It could be that its just salt forms of bufotenine or bufotenine freebase, no fancy different molecule such as calcium bufotenate.

Biggest proponent of this "different" bufotenine was 69ron ( = baron, who wrote that experience) and he was known for his controversial claims and his connection with dubious FV supplier (check the FV controversy subforum and you'll see). Personally I'd be wary believing the claims, but if you or anybody else feel like testing different conversion methods and bioassaying (ideally blind) to see if its any difference, and/or run it through analytical equipment, thats always welcome Very happy
 
Entropymancer
#3 Posted : 2/28/2011 2:49:15 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumModerator | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumChemical expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumSenior Member | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorum

Posts: 1367
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 12-Jun-2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
Aside from baron/69ron, there was only one other person (using the names "Adam Smythe" or "Anadenanthera"... which I suppose could just be other aliases for baron) that reported on their production an use of "calcium bufotenine". They seemed very determined that their information be taken as fact (repeatedly editing wikipedia pages to support their own claims) without providing much substantive evidence.

From all that I've read on the subject (and a couple crude experiments), I've come to the conclusion that the whole thing is a complete myth. I have no idea what the agenda was for perpetuating the myth so forcefully as though it were fact (rather than presenting the idea and seeking means of confirmation) other than generating business for FV.

Don't get me wrong, using the free base of bufotenine instead of a salt probably makes a world of difference. Frankly, considering the literature reports employing salts of bufotenine, I have no desire to try them...
 
Saltydawg
#4 Posted : 2/28/2011 7:35:28 PM

pppfff


Posts: 26
Joined: 20-Feb-2011
Last visit: 08-Mar-2011
Location: United States - Midwest
That is weird. I will look into the controversy. thank you for the information and a backstory.
I am a saltydawg using my master's computer posting fictional posts for another saltydawg that lives in a different country.
 
Saltydawg
#5 Posted : 2/28/2011 7:44:09 PM

pppfff


Posts: 26
Joined: 20-Feb-2011
Last visit: 08-Mar-2011
Location: United States - Midwest
sad to see a schism in this lovely forum. Moderator, please lock this thread.
I am a saltydawg using my master's computer posting fictional posts for another saltydawg that lives in a different country.
 
soulfood
#6 Posted : 3/1/2011 12:11:02 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member | Skills: DMT, Harmaloids, Bufotenine, Mescaline, Trip advice

Posts: 4804
Joined: 08-Dec-2008
Last visit: 18-Aug-2023
Location: UK
I'm sure more people than Ron have mentioned a red form of bufotenine with effects closer to DMT but similar to bufotenine in duration. Whether it actually meant to be calcium bufotenate is a different story, but I don't think it's time to throw this one out of the window.
 
Saltydawg
#7 Posted : 3/1/2011 8:54:45 AM

pppfff


Posts: 26
Joined: 20-Feb-2011
Last visit: 08-Mar-2011
Location: United States - Midwest
double post
I am a saltydawg using my master's computer posting fictional posts for another saltydawg that lives in a different country.
 
Saltydawg
#8 Posted : 3/1/2011 8:55:35 AM

pppfff


Posts: 26
Joined: 20-Feb-2011
Last visit: 08-Mar-2011
Location: United States - Midwest
]yea i think your right. Id like to see more development on bufotenin on the nexus. I'll get on that train once SWIM finishes a dmt extraction. this forum definately has the power for that. I guess time will tell.
I am a saltydawg using my master's computer posting fictional posts for another saltydawg that lives in a different country.
 
Madcap
#9 Posted : 3/2/2011 12:38:26 AM

illudium Q-36


Posts: 861
Joined: 09-Jul-2009
Last visit: 28-Nov-2024
Location: uranus


Noman said it could be done too. Although he may have stated otherwise somewhere else...this is from an older thread (that you can find using the search function)

Ron also stated (later) that he believed there may have been a dmt n,n-oxide contamination.... and that may have been what made the awesomeness happen that one time.

If ron is/was FV... this may make sense because some of the thh was contaminated with dmt.

Personally, I miss ron Sad



Noman wrote:
This is the best that my friend has tried.

"You want to start with water. If you start with alcohol, it pulls out a TON of fat and oil from the beans. If you don't mind de-fatting your extract, alcohol will do fine. De-fatting is a drag. However always make sure to add calcium hydroxide at some point near the end of your extraction or you’ll end up with an acidic form of bufotenin which will make you sick.

Here’s a simple tech that anyone can do.

* Go to a country were this is 100% LEGAL! Do NOT do this in a country were it is not 100% legal to do so. Its legal in most countries. I like Brazil. Its not legal in the US. What's wrong with Americans? I thought this was the land of the free like the song says.
* Boil the powdered beans covered in plenty of water (made pH 3 with hydrochloric acid, or just use 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water). Filter out the beans. You might want to do this a few times to get all the alkaloids.
* Evaporate the water extract down to a syrupy consistency. You can use an oven at 175 F to evaporate your stuff if you like. It’s best to use a commercial food dehydrator for this.
* To your syrup add alcohol (91% isopropyl alcohol is great), enough to make it easy to poor. Mix it for a minute or so. Solids will forms.
* Filter out the solids that form and discard them.
* Evaporate your alcohol down to a syrupy consistency.
* To your thick syrup add calcium hydroxide (pickling lime for cooking), enough to make a paste. Mix it thoroughly. It should start to smell like ammonia. Let it sit for many hours. Once the ammonia smell is gone, the reaction is complete. Instead of aweful acidic bufotenine you now have the superior calcium bufotenate in your extract.

At this point you have two options:

Alcohol option:

* mix in a generous amount of alcohol to soak up the bufotenine. Filter out the solids, evaporate your alcohol to get a pretty good extract (about 30% calcium bufotenate). Break it up into a fine powder. About 5 mg is a good starting dose for vaporizing it.

Acetone option:

* dry your extract completely. Then break it up into a fine powder.
* mix in a generous amount of acetone (available as a 100% pure solvent at most hardware stores) to soak up the bufotenine. Filter out the solids, evaporate your acetone to get a pretty good extract (about 75% calcium bufotenate).
* dissolve your extract in just enough 91% isopropyl alcohol to make a thick syrup.
* add 2 parts water. Filter out and SAVE the solids. The solids are your calcium bufotenate and the water should be discarded. Now you have nearly 90% pure calcium bufotenate. About 2 mg is a good starting dose for vaporizing it. A 10 mg dose is VERY INTENSE. Note that a small amount of calcium bufotenate will be left in the water used. This can be saved and re-extracted later.

Either way, the final extract tends to be a little bit sticky, more so if you go the alcohol route. I recommend adding a little cellulose like pharmaceutical companies use. About 10-20% by weight is good. You can buy cellulose at health food stores. It’s sold as dietary fiber. Just weigh out your extract to calculate 10-20% of that weight in cellulose, add some alcohol to it, just enough to make a syrup, then mix your cellulose and let it dry again. It shouldn't be sticky anymore."

All posts written by Madcap should be regarded as fiction.
 
Entropymancer
#10 Posted : 3/2/2011 6:42:23 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumModerator | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumChemical expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumSenior Member | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorum

Posts: 1367
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 12-Jun-2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
I suspect Noman was just trusting ron and/or adam smyth/anadenanthera about what the product was. The method he used is similar to their methods, and it will extract bufotenine free base (which is quite a potent substance). While it is conceivable for a salt to form with calcium (Ca2+) as the cation and a deprotonated aromatic alcohol (ArO-) as the anion, this does not appear to happen with bufotenine. As I recall, even ron gave up any pretense that these methods produce "calcium bufotenine" when the issue came under scrutiny.

Soulfood, can you provide any links to mentions of another bufotenine-like product from the seeds?

 
Infundibulum
#11 Posted : 3/2/2011 2:06:28 PM

Kalt und Heiß, Schwarz und Rot, Kürper und Geist, Liebe und Chaos

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 4661
Joined: 02-Jun-2008
Last visit: 30-Apr-2022
There's also dehydrobufotenine into the story, which may be a reaction product in basic conditions, maybe with Ca(OH)2 as catalyst.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
alabama78
#12 Posted : 3/14/2011 12:28:49 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 5
Joined: 12-Mar-2011
Last visit: 03-Aug-2011
Location: Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT
Madcap wrote:


Noman said it could be done too. Although he may have stated otherwise somewhere else...this is from an older thread (that you can find using the search function)

Ron also stated (later) that he believed there may have been a dmt n,n-oxide contamination.... and that may have been what made the awesomeness happen that one time.

If ron is/was FV... this may make sense because some of the thh was contaminated with dmt.

Personally, I miss ron Sad



Noman wrote:
This is the best that my friend has tried.

"You want to start with water. If you start with alcohol, it pulls out a TON of fat and oil from the beans. If you don't mind de-fatting your extract, alcohol will do fine. De-fatting is a drag. However always make sure to add calcium hydroxide at some point near the end of your extraction or you’ll end up with an acidic form of bufotenin which will make you sick.

Here’s a simple tech that anyone can do.

* Go to a country were this is 100% LEGAL! Do NOT do this in a country were it is not 100% legal to do so. Its legal in most countries. I like Brazil. Its not legal in the US. What's wrong with Americans? I thought this was the land of the free like the song says.
* Boil the powdered beans covered in plenty of water (made pH 3 with hydrochloric acid, or just use 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water). Filter out the beans. You might want to do this a few times to get all the alkaloids.
* Evaporate the water extract down to a syrupy consistency. You can use an oven at 175 F to evaporate your stuff if you like. It’s best to use a commercial food dehydrator for this.
* To your syrup add alcohol (91% isopropyl alcohol is great), enough to make it easy to poor. Mix it for a minute or so. Solids will forms.
* Filter out the solids that form and discard them.
* Evaporate your alcohol down to a syrupy consistency.
* To your thick syrup add calcium hydroxide (pickling lime for cooking), enough to make a paste. Mix it thoroughly. It should start to smell like ammonia. Let it sit for many hours. Once the ammonia smell is gone, the reaction is complete. Instead of aweful acidic bufotenine you now have the superior calcium bufotenate in your extract.

At this point you have two options:

Alcohol option:

* mix in a generous amount of alcohol to soak up the bufotenine. Filter out the solids, evaporate your alcohol to get a pretty good extract (about 30% calcium bufotenate). Break it up into a fine powder. About 5 mg is a good starting dose for vaporizing it.

Acetone option:

* dry your extract completely. Then break it up into a fine powder.
* mix in a generous amount of acetone (available as a 100% pure solvent at most hardware stores) to soak up the bufotenine. Filter out the solids, evaporate your acetone to get a pretty good extract (about 75% calcium bufotenate).
* dissolve your extract in just enough 91% isopropyl alcohol to make a thick syrup.
* add 2 parts water. Filter out and SAVE the solids. The solids are your calcium bufotenate and the water should be discarded. Now you have nearly 90% pure calcium bufotenate. About 2 mg is a good starting dose for vaporizing it. A 10 mg dose is VERY INTENSE. Note that a small amount of calcium bufotenate will be left in the water used. This can be saved and re-extracted later.

Either way, the final extract tends to be a little bit sticky, more so if you go the alcohol route. I recommend adding a little cellulose like pharmaceutical companies use. About 10-20% by weight is good. You can buy cellulose at health food stores. It’s sold as dietary fiber. Just weigh out your extract to calculate 10-20% of that weight in cellulose, add some alcohol to it, just enough to make a syrup, then mix your cellulose and let it dry again. It shouldn't be sticky anymore."




is reliable? someone has done
 
soulfood
#13 Posted : 3/14/2011 12:45:15 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member | Skills: DMT, Harmaloids, Bufotenine, Mescaline, Trip advice

Posts: 4804
Joined: 08-Dec-2008
Last visit: 18-Aug-2023
Location: UK
I looked up this thread:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me....aspx?g=posts&t=5694

it's not as useful as I remember.
 
alabama78
#14 Posted : 3/14/2011 5:23:56 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 5
Joined: 12-Mar-2011
Last visit: 03-Aug-2011
Location: Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT
ok thanks
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.035 seconds.