Always room for experimentation! Although I wish I had your "problem".

Eagerly awaiting an update Malaclypse. I don't have any lye, so I'm hoping lime will work as well.

Oh and btw, amazing thread Wanderer.

Very nice work everyone, especially to the Wanderer and Dagger1

I remember Dagger, you had tried to basify MHRB brew in the past but nothing had changed (no liquid forming on top, no crystals forming on the bottom), right? Could it be possible that you link us to what you had done? I think you had acidified the brew with vinegar and based with sodium carbonate, right?

Wandered used no acid for the acid cook and based with NaOH; NaOH for some reason is better at driving crystallisation of dmt out of aqueous solution, this may be the reason of the current success.

Now SWIM is really interested at trying gthis out himself!

Just had to say THANK you for all the good work in this thread Wanderer and friends, this is pretty good info and if end results are comparable to other teks, Ill be tossing all them nasty chems out in the trash~!

Dagger, that pic you posted is beautiful ~ Good art~!

THANK YOU!

That liquid dmt is gorgeous dagger!

This seems like a very promising TEK, but no one has yet posted yields! If yields are comparable to standard NP extraction TEKs, then we’ve got some real innovation here.

Ideally, a standard TEK done side-by-side with this water-only TEK with equal quantities of MHRB from the same batch would give a good indication of relative yield.

@ Dagger - that photo of yours looks like a Mandelbrot image!

Oh wow, Dagger! That looks amazing. And that's a lot more liquid DMT than I had in my jar, and I still got a good amount out of it. Expect a lot of tasty crystals, I'd say

I'd love to post yields, gibran, but I lack an accurate enough scale. I am hoping either Dagger or Malaclypse will have access to one.

On a theoretical note, however, I don't see any reason why this tek wouldn't be less efficient than a non-polar one. All the NP layer would do in this case would be to suck up all the liquid DMT into another solution; it doesn't necessarily suck any more out of aqueous solution since it cannot directly interface with it. The base in this case needs to liberate the DMT salts before any NP solvent can interact with them. In this tek I simply decided to remove the NP solvent and allow the DMT to crystallize with itself, thus allowing it to be able to be filtered out.

Still, scientific theory and scientific evidence are two vastly different things. Experimentation is never a bad thing here, so perhaps someone trying this methods should do a NP pull on the left over tea, or like you said, do a side-by-side with the same amount of plant-material.

-- Wanderer

One possibility is that some liquid DMT is loosely bound to small particles suspended in solution. Bringing such particles into contact with a NP solvent might release them into the solvent. (Of course, it’s also possible that the liquid DMT on the surface is acting a bit like a NP solvent.) So without the use of a NP solvent, some DMT might be lost. This is purely speculation, and side-by-side extractions would be needed to determine what is really happening.

One thought occured to me:

The density of dmt is 1.099g/ml, that means that (be it in liquid or solid form) it should sink in pure water. People who do the basic water crystallisation tek already know this. Why it flows in the experiments of the Wanderer and Dagger is possibly the result of an aquous solution (MHRB extract in this case) that is denser than dmt itself.

The above means that in a too dilute solution of MHRB (such as the unreduced brew and the result of THP) DMT may not float at all after the basing. This might be an important detail for people to keep in mind.

What surprises me most is that since DMT freebase floats, the basic MHRB solution must be fairly dense, definitely more than 1.100g/ml. Judging from my limited experience in densitometry, this is quite dense (it corresponds to a solution as dense as 1 litre of water with 300g of sugar in it) and I'd neve rsuspect tthat MHRB decoction can get as dense.

Yes, adding a solute (lye, salt, sugar etc) will make the solution denser. How denser, it is hard to know without calculations and measurements. Depending on the density dmt will either float, sink or stay suspended in the solution (in the latter case the aqueous density is exactly as dmt's).

Each of these water crystallisation teks uses different materials, different rations of salts/bases/water and of course empiricism and nobody pays too much attention whether it floats or sinks; either way dmt freebase can be easily retrieved. But in the case of the unclean, pitch black and murky MHRB soup I think there' s a great practical interest in making dmt float, hence I think it is important to emphasize on a concentrated solution.

Nope that is the correct picture. I'm no expert so I can't say why the bottom layer looks creamish in color. If you notice the coloration on the side of the jar it seems SWIM's coffee filters might let some of the MHRB particles through (He used finely powdered root bark). But that is what happened after adding the lime and stirring. Can't see the exact pH, but as I said SWIM had the PH at a minimum of 10 according to his pH strips and more lime was added after the fact. Perhaps that is just how it will look with lime vs lye? Endlessness mentioned that lime is not very soluble in water so maybe that has something to do with it?

Malaclypse, i may be wrong here, but looking at your photo and the info you provided, it looks like you're trying to do a wet-tek using lime, which will not work. Lime is not very soluble in water at all, this is what you see collecting on the bottom of the jar, all the lime that won't dissolve. If you are using lime, you have to use a minimal amount of water, it looks like you are using far too much here. Lime is for dry-tek's, lye and sodium carb can be used for wet-teks.

As for the dmt floating on top of solution, SWIM has seen this happen when crystallizing out of distilled water using sodium carb, forms beautiful lillypad crystals on top of the water if you layered it on top instead of mixing quickly.

Narmz,

SWIM is attempting to do the extraction exactly as outlined in the first post only with lime instead of lye as people were curious to see the results with lime. So yes I guess that would make it a wet tek and it may not work. The whole purpose is to test out whether it works or not, SWIM is not concerned either way. The amount of solution prior to adding the lime was just over 100ml. SWIM may try again after this reducing a little further to create a little thicker solution depending on how things turn out from this one.

As for the picture, the bottom layer is not solid according to SWIM. It is a creamy solution like a heavily creamed coffee. Probably a mix of lime solid that won't dissolve but is suspended with whatever is soluble in the water as well. Either way it does appear to be some crystallization floating on the top "oily" looking layer. So we shall see what happens after many days.

Lime is poorly soluble in water, I doubt it will work as narmz said. I think if you want to try something else appart from lye, better go with sodium carbonate instead.

An easy fix for this would be to dissolve some sodium carbonate in there, it should hook up with the calcium hydroxide(lime) and form sodium hydroxide(lye), and then you should be good to continue with the tek.

SWIM will let it sit for a few days in the Fridge as is first just to see and then go with that route afterwords. SWIM is just playing around to test out things and isn't worried about yield so if this goes bust no worries. Just 20g MHRB anyway. It is for the greater good.

Next time SWIM will try and do the whole tech as outlined but use Sodium Carbonate with a fresh batch of 20g and see how that goes.

Thanks for the advice!

Indeed Malaclypse, it doesn't really look dark enough to have freebased, but if SWIY can see floating and liquified DMT, he may be on the right path. Heating the solution might make more of the lime soluble, and so increase the pH. SWIY may also want to try sodium carbonate, but from SWIM's own experiment there, it doesn't seem to be a strong enough base (without heat).

As far as why the DMT seems to float in this case, I suspect it's because of the solute concentration of the aqueous fraction. In addition to the lye, the solution would have absorbed a lot of various other salts and soluble compounds from the plant matter. In addition to this, when SWIM washes his dirty crystals with cold water, he noticed that the darker, tea would immediately sink to the bottom (and fall through the filter), while the clean water stayed on top (and thus displaced all the dirty tea from the crystals). This indicates to SWIM that the dirty tea is significantly more dense than clean water.

-- Wanderer

This all seems well and good, but I would like to hear about someone doing this carefully measuring everything to help put some numbers to this and therefore making the process repeatable by others. Once product is obtained having some further analysis done on it would be very illuminating as to the effectiveness of the tec.

Well as far as I am aware, there are a number of people replicating the Tek, some with variations. SWIM will do this Tek again fairly soon, document fluid volumes, masses, etc, to get some solid numbers down. From a personal bioassay, SWIM can say that the product was potent and fairly pure.

Excellent work, I am very eager to try this out for myself as well. Seems many are already taking the 'risk', but once i have some numbers to work with, I will help back this up with my results too.