I guess this is the best place fit to discuss this.

I have just read the summary of the birth of the current constitution of America, and a little history of the constitutions before it. One important thing i have learned is the only time America was actually free was when we first settled here. And from there power quickly got placed in the hands of the wealthy. And through the years eventually the wealthy expanded their power from individual states to controlling the entire country as the federal government was established.

Even before the federal goverment the wealthy of the state had the power, and systems setup so only the wealthy have a say in how things operate and who's in controll of operations. Basically poor people have always been controlled by wealthy people. I don't really see anyway around it, there is no land of the free, and probably never will be.

Though it would be very tricky to even come up with a way to obtain true freedom. I really don't see anyway possible for freedom, unless your going to go native, and grow and make your own supplies, but then your going to need unclaimed land to do so, and at any time can be taken over by another power.

The closest to freedom we could really achieve is to better enforce the bill of rights, we basically need some kind of organization that can protect our rights, and a way to insure they don't become currupt. We need a better and more diffined bill of rights, one that clearly states rights that cannot be taken away for any reason. We have a decent bill of rights now, but the wealthy in power claim its open for debate on what the rights even are. Even though they are clearly stated, the only way to get them back is for people to be educated on them and ban together to keep them.

Sadly the government is in control of education unless you are wealthy, or wealthy enough to be able to home school, shit, i really don't know what the answer is, and people don't get along good enough to come together on any subject really. Maybe we are just screwed in the freedom department, maybe we should put the main focus on education, so people will make better decisions in the future....but how can that even be obtained, how could we go about demanding better education from our government?

America will always be as devided as it is. The economic differences are just too big. You have modern cosmopolitan places as chicago, new york, los-angeles, boston and san-fransisco and you have the bible-belt. Differences between those places are probably bigger than between the most extreme opposite's within the european union (well, at least before romania joined).

Obama's administration and the federal reserve bank are playing a huge bet with the economy: injecting money into the economy untill the consumer will start spending again or the american economy will show to be a somewhat larger version of the greek economy. If they succeed then things will look very bright for america because then they've shown that liberal policy's can be economically viable. If they fail, then america is in for very unpleasant times, because i don't see america bowing for the IMF's demands, and america is also a bit too big a patient to save for the IMF.

America may have it's freedom one day, if the people and their leaders start realising that it no longer is calling the shots anymore in the rest of the world. That would maybe allow for some foreign influence on america's culture. At this moment i don't think america's leaders are open to that because they obviously consider themselves to be completely superiour.

what else do you expect from authoritarian leaders?
they get the bulk of their campaign contributions from large businesses, businesses which have been outsourcing labor and resources for the last 3 decades; the 1970's was the last time the US actually had a GDP surplus.
as for our freedoms, well.. we're free to choose which cheap crap we can buy, and our troops defend that freedom by ensuring the [now waning] US empire abroad is maintained.

and how do you think the wealthy got that way? leeching off the poor

technically, everything went f&%k'd in america when businesses (the railroad industry initially) gained the legal representation of an individual during Reconstruction. think about it.

It makes me sad to think that not everyone in this world is free. America obviously has restrictions and has more than a lot wrong with their government, corrupt, selfish, and close minded. But, we have the freedom to vote, we have the freedom to own land (granted if we dont pay taxes they take it). But, I think you should wake up everyday with a smile on your face because your waking up for one, your alive, you dont wake up to gorilla troops storming and taking your house, you dont die because of dysentery due to contaminated water in your particular village or town.. I say that when I wake up in america everyday as a "free" man, I should thank someone for that, may not be the universal soldier or the patty cake parade, But all in all, at the present time, I live in what I would consider a more or less free country.

The following is "last thoughts on woody guthrie" by Bob Dylan. He wrote it for time magazine which asked him to do a poem on woody guthries death in 20 words or less, he couldnt do it.. He wrote out 5 pages. You can tell he started remorseful, but grew angry through out, read it and see if you can tell what he is mad at? its pure genius..

When yer head gets twisted and yer mind grows numb
When you think you're too old, too young, too smart or too dumb
When yer laggin' behind an' losin' yer pace
In a slow-motion crawl of life's busy race
No matter what yer doing if you start givin' up
If the wine don't come to the top of yer cup
If the wind's got you sideways with with one hand holdin' on
And the other starts slipping and the feeling is gone
And yer train engine fire needs a new spark to catch it
And the wood's easy findin' but yer lazy to fetch it
And yer sidewalk starts curlin' and the street gets too long
And you start walkin' backwards though you know its wrong
And lonesome comes up as down goes the day
And tomorrow's mornin' seems so far away
And you feel the reins from yer pony are slippin'
And yer rope is a-slidin' 'cause yer hands are a-drippin'
And yer sun-decked desert and evergreen valleys
Turn to broken down slums and trash-can alleys
And yer sky cries water and yer drain pipe's a-pourin'
And the lightnin's a-flashing and the thunder's a-crashin'
And the windows are rattlin' and breakin' and the roof tops a-shakin'
And yer whole world's a-slammin' and bangin'
And yer minutes of sun turn to hours of storm
And to yourself you sometimes say
"I never knew it was gonna be this way
Why didn't they tell me the day I was born"

And you start gettin' chills and yer jumping from sweat
And you're lookin' for somethin' you ain't quite found yet
And yer knee-deep in the dark water with yer hands in the air
And the whole world's a-watchin' with a window peek stare
And yer good gal leaves and she's long gone a-flying
And yer heart feels sick like fish when they're fryin'
And yer jackhammer falls from yer hand to yer feet
And you need it badly but it lays on the street
And yer bell's bangin' loudly but you can't hear its beat
And you think yer ears might a been hurt
Or yer eyes've turned filthy from the sight-blindin' dirt
And you figured you failed in yesterdays rush
When you were faked out an' fooled white facing a four flush
And all the time you were holdin' three queens
And it's makin you mad, it's makin' you mean
Like in the middle of Life magazine
Bouncin' around a pinball machine

And there's something on yer mind you wanna be saying
That somebody someplace oughta be hearin'
But it's trapped on yer tongue and sealed in yer head
And it bothers you badly when your layin' in bed
And no matter how you try you just can't say it
And yer scared to yer soul you just might forget it
And yer eyes get swimmy from the tears in yer head
And yer pillows of feathers turn to blankets of lead
And the lion's mouth opens and yer staring at his teeth
And his jaws start closin with you underneath
And yer flat on your belly with yer hands tied behind
And you wish you'd never taken that last detour sign

And you say to yourself just what am I doin'
On this road I'm walkin', on this trail I'm turnin'
On this curve I'm hanging
On this pathway I'm strolling, in the space I'm talking
In this air I'm inhaling
Am I mixed up too much, am I mixed up too hard
Why am I walking, where am I running
What am I saying, what am I knowing
On this guitar I'm playing, on this banjo I'm frailin'
On this mandolin I'm strummin', in the song I'm singin'
In the tune I'm hummin', in the words I'm writin'
In the words that I'm thinkin'
In this ocean of hours I'm all the time drinkin'
Who am I helping, what am I breaking
What am I giving, what am I taking

But you try with your whole soul best
Never to think these thoughts and never to let
Them kind of thoughts gain ground
Or make yer heart pound
But then again you know why they're around
Just waiting for a chance to slip and drop down
"Cause sometimes you hear'em when the night times comes creeping
And you fear that they might catch you a-sleeping
And you jump from yer bed, from yer last chapter of dreamin'
And you can't remember for the best of yer thinking
If that was you in the dream that was screaming

And you know that it's something special you're needin'
And you know that there's no drug that'll do for the healin'
And no liquor in the land to stop yer brain from bleeding
And you need something special
Yeah, you need something special all right
You need a fast flyin' train on a tornado track
To shoot you someplace and shoot you back
You need a cyclone wind on a stream engine howler
That's been banging and booming and blowing forever
That knows yer troubles a hundred times over

You need a Greyhound bus that don't bar no race
That won't laugh at yer looks
Your voice or your face
And by any number of bets in the book
Will be rollin' long after the bubblegum craze
You need something to open up a new door
To show you something you seen before
But overlooked a hundred times or more
You need something to open your eyes
You need something to make it known
That it's you and no one else that owns
That spot that yer standing, that space that you're sitting
That the world ain't got you beat
That it ain't got you licked
It can't get you crazy no matter how many
Times you might get kicked

You need something special all right
You need something special to give you hope
But hope's just a word
That maybe you said or maybe you heard
On some windy corner 'round a wide-angled curve
But that's what you need man, and you need it bad
And yer trouble is you know it too good
"Cause you look an' you start getting the chills
"Cause you can't find it on a dollar bill
And it ain't on Macy's window sill
And it ain't on no rich kid's road map
And it ain't in no fat kid's fraternity house
And it ain't made in no Hollywood wheat germ
And it ain't on that dimlit stage
With that half-wit comedian on it
Ranting and raving and taking yer money
And you thinks it's funny
No you can't find it in no night club or no yacht club
And it ain't in the seats of a supper club
And sure as hell you're bound to tell
That no matter how hard you rub
You just ain't a-gonna find it on yer ticket stub
No, and it ain't in the rumors people're tellin' you
And it ain't in the pimple-lotion people are sellin' you
And it ain't in no cardboard-box house
Or down any movie star's blouse
And you can't find it on the golf course
And Uncle Remus can't tell you and neither can Santa Claus
And it ain't in the cream puff hair-do or cotton candy clothes
And it ain't in the dime store dummies or bubblegum goons
And it ain't in the marshmallow noises of the chocolate cake voices
That come knockin' and tappin' in Christmas wrappin'
Sayin' ain't I pretty and ain't I cute and look at my skin
Look at my skin shine, look at my skin glow
Look at my skin laugh, look at my skin cry
When you can't even sense if they got any insides
These people so pretty in their ribbons and bows

No you'll not now or no other day
Find it on the doorsteps made out-a paper mache
And inside it the people made of molasses
That every other day buy a new pair of sunglasses
And it ain't in the fifty-star generals and flipped-out phonies
Who'd turn yuh in for a tenth of a penny
Who breathe and burp and bend and crack
And before you can count from one to ten
Do it all over again but this time behind yer back
My friend
The ones that wheel and deal and whirl and twirl
And play games with each other in their sand-box world
And you can't find it either in the no-talent fools
That run around gallant
And make all rules for the ones that got talent
And it ain't in the ones that ain't got any talent but think they do
And think they're foolin' you
The ones who jump on the wagon
Just for a while 'cause they know it's in style
To get their kicks, get out of it quick
And make all kinds of rnoney and chicks

And you yell to yourself and you throw down yer hat
Sayin', "Christ do I gotta be like that
Ain't there no one here that knows where I'm at
Ain't there no one here that knows how I feel
Good God Almighty
THAT STUFF AINT REAL"

No but that ain't yer game, it ain't even yer race
You can't hear yer name, you can't see yer face
You gotta look some other place
And where do you look for this hope that yer seekin'
Where do you look for this lamp that's a-burnin'
Where do you look for this oil well gushin'
Where do you look for this candle that's glowin'
Where do you look for this hope that you know is there
And out there somewhere

And your feet can only walk down two kinds of roads
Your eyes can only look through two kinds of windows
Your nose can only smell two kinds of hallways
You can touch and twist
And turn two kinds of doorknobs
You can either go to the church of your choice
Or you can go to Brooklyn State Hospital
And though it's only my opinion
I may be right or wrong
You'll find them both
In the Grand Canyon
At sundown

i think if you are in any form conditioned by the govt you are not free.

Actually we don't have either of those freedoms, we just have the appearance of those freedoms. Anyone who understands the electorial voting system should realize that the individual dosen't have a say in anything, the combinations of the individuals votes rest in the hands of a few which do not have to pay attention to the majorities votes.

You don't own your land either, when your land is payed off, you continue to pay rent(taxes) on it. It is still considered government land and can be took from you if they desire it. And at that point you are forced to sell it to them, if you refuse they force it and give you less money than the land is worth.



Another thing to point out is though it was put in the new constitution, it was never actually enforced. Which is the only currency should be gold and silver, not bills of credit. Though it would be a pain in the ass to carry it around, the importance behind it is clear and been shown through out history. When they hand out bills of credit, thats all you have...no real value. People have ended up with worthless papper before, and will again.

Think of this other point, say you have a million dollars in credit bills, now you hold on to this for 20 years, the value of your bills could drop 90%. Now, say you have a million in gold, your value will not drop to bad, and has potential to rise in value.

voting.

the common man voting against Fortune 100 CEO votes is like a mouse squeak amongst lions' roars. your vote just doesn't have that much money behind it.
the board gets to choose the puppet long before the primaries.

yes, another good point. People only pay attention to suggestions that come with a bribe.

Americans are conditioned by their government to think like that. In any nation that is not corrupt, people expect their government to protect them from harm. In america people are tought not to demand anything from their governments so the businesses can pollute and exploit all they want.

It's the spirit of mcartyism that never realy died. A cultivated obsessive fear for communism.

If you are in any way conditioned by big busines you're not free either.

Therefore you need to have a balance between government power and free enterprise. Neither government or big corporations should have limitless power and the only way to ensure that neither of the two will ever have all the power to do whatever they want without restrictions is 1-a good constitution that clearly restricts the power of the government and at the same time raises the obligation for the government to protect it's citizens 2-a powerfull uncorrupted institution (like a senate) that checks any government decission for it's constitutional value and 3-a powerfull government organisation that is on the one hand restricted by the constitution and the law and on the other hand capable of exercising it's power for doing what it is expected to do.

my hope is all earthlings will know freedom soon, if they dont already in their hearts. there are for sure those americans who believe "america is the greatest country in the world, and it has the duty to do this or that". these people are hopefully in the minority. I think there is much influence from many other cultures here, it has been called the melting pot, and is becoming more diverse by the day. as for americas' leaders, who knows what they really think? i sure didn't vote for them. those cards have been stacked for a long time.

I get the impression that currently influence from other cultures is pretty much limited to places such as frisco, chicago, new-york and other metropolis-area's. My nephew lives in georgia right now and he tells me he finds it quite 'isolated' culturally.
I'm not very much a city person myself, but i do find that larger urban areas on average have a more open tolerant atmosphere than most of the rural parts of the world.
I don't know how life in america realy is when it comes to civil liberty's but i have the impression that it's pretty much a nation of 'don't-ask-don't-tell'-liberty, meaning that you can be pretty free to do what you want as long as you don't do it too openly. That aplies to most other civilised places in the world.

I would agree that this is not REAL freedom, but it's still better than places like iran, belarus or saudi arabia.














[/quote]

I have worked with a person from up north around NY, he says going down south is like taking a ride into the past, the way cities are built including the technology used. I like living in the country myself, though the level of intelligence of the majority is lower. I prefer privacy, thats hard to get in big cities.

The way to get the best out of america is to buy a few acres of land in the south, build a small house (1000sq ft), have a well & septic, use renewable(solar & wind) energy and grow your own food, and setup water tanks to collect rain water. Thats my dream plan. If done right you can have all this and pay total in bills less than $5,000 a year(after all payed for). Have internet, tv and my guitar and i'm setup with all i need. I've always dreamed of turning 4 acres into huge magical forest(a name me and my friend came up with). A huge plotted out garden with an exotic feel, changing in appearence dramatically as you walk trough it. All i can ever hope for. Have an underground hidden structure as my little MJ lab.

sometimes i completely forget about the south, and how backwoods and culturally sterile it can really be. i have been to all those states, tho. what you are saying about cities being more culturally diverse is true.



now thats freedom i do like your idea of a magic garden

I'd say that sums it up quite nicely.