Hello Everyone,

I have read of a few instances in which (usually chronic) users of DMT have experienced active reprehension or denial by the entities they encounter, often expressing warnings like "what you are doing is wrong -- you must stop."

My question lies more-so in the spiritual side of this sort of experience. Has anyone felt that the entirety of the DMT experience is grounds for being scolded or punished by these various "beings", or rather the excessive use as being the primary cause?

As much as my logical mind would like to associate with atheism, my intuitive perception feels a tie to a much greater field of consciousness (and that we as humans are an expression of that consciousness experiencing itself). I would not like to "damage" any current or potential connections to that collective consciousness, or be punished for seeking greater access to Truth.

That being said, it seems a majority of these ethereal scoldings occur as a result of excessive or sightless ab-use of DMT -- not as a tool for growth, but as a shuttle for escape.

Any perspective or insight into this topic would be greatly appreciated.

In Peace,
Wanderer

Well, I believe that DMT reflects your own consciousness into visual perspective. So being "denied" I feel would just mean that you deny yourself, why? Maybe you feel that you have had to much, maybe your scared it's going to be damaging, hell maybe you just don't really want to do it, but you do anyways... I've had many experiences (of course, definitely not as many as a lot of people on this site) and I'm ALWAYS welcomed with warm loving embrace... Well almost always; sometimes I got cocky and was thrown into fractal oblivion, once recently I was terribly missing my love and didn't smoke enough and was "pushed away", or "cast out", but then I smoked more and was welcomed with embrace and even a slight scolding because I haven't ventured to see them for quite some time...

Hello Wanderer,

I suggest you look up info on the use of Epená among the Yanomama peoples of the Orinoco Basin to get a good idea of how people who have thousands of years of experience with DMT are using it.

In contrast, we as western men have no idea what DMT really is, what it does, how it should be used properly or for what ends. We are now where the Amazonians were perhaps 10,000 years ago.


HTH,

-f

Wanderer, without getting into the 'is this real or not' question (which I think is very interestingly touched in this thread), I think that if you feel you are not getting a good experience with dmt, its time to take a break and dedicate to other things in life. You can always go back to it at some point. I feel that the chances of having a good experience are much greater if one is being healthy and productive in daily life, trying to self-develop, be good to others, etc, and then comes back after a break from dmt. Check this FAQ question out:


FAQ: Denied breakthrough / dark DMT trips / Not good experiences anymore ?





fwaggle,

Epena contains mostly 5-meo-dmt, not dmt, which is quite different as im sure you know

Also amazonians dont have a unique point of reference or idea regarding dmt either. Different tribes will have different beliefs and rituals regarding dmt, even at times being straight away contradictive one with the other. I dont think this idealized look at shamanism is healthy. I neither think its a really valid comparison between development of western world and tribes or tribes vs tribes, for the reasons I mentioned.

@Endlessness: How do you know this about the Amazonians? I've never seen contradicting views among them. They just have different mythologies.

And why do you think we are so different from them? They are men who found a drug. They used it for generations and passed on their knowledge to their children. They know when to use it and for what purpose because they have learned this through experience.

Are you saying it would hurt a man to know how people who use psychedelics on a daily basis and have been doing so for thousands of years are doing it? I'm sure this isn't what you're saying. But I'm sure these indians know the conflicts, contradictions and no-no's about using these drugs better than the Western man.

Maybe we should learn what we can from them before they're gone?

-f

BTW, the use of Epena in the Orinoco Basin is not restricted to Shamans. All adult males use it on a daily basis. Sometimes quite a few times a day, which is just incredible because one trip per day is more than I could ever take.

-f

I say because Im from south america and have participated in rituals with different amazonian tribes. Some tribes will abhor alcohol, others might combine alcohol-containing drink, cocaine-containing extract (dried powdered freebased cocaleafs) and ayahuasca in the very same ritual. Some tribes will use brugmansia/datura-kind of plants as a sacred gift, while others will consider this evil witchcraft.

Some tribes may consider women taking ayahuasca as an absurd, others will have women participate regularly in the ceremonies. Some may consider absurd that anybody appart from the shaman partakes the drug. Certain ayahuasca diets may contain certain food where in other tribes this could be completely different (same with sex-diet and so on). Not to mention their creation stories and myths. There are hundreds of examples of contradictions not only in their cosmo-vision but how it translates into rituals as well as daily acts.

I never said it would hurt him to research into indigenous cultures, I think its all perfect, as long as he doesnt have a romantic idealized view about shamans and doesnt take all of their words literally and without putting it in perspective. I think we have a lot to learn from diversity in general, including but not limited to indigenous cultures, but I also think there's wonderful things about the western knowledge that others can benefit of too, and many indigenous people will agree.... Its important the interaction is in a dialogue and not uni-directionally, as it happened when the colonizers arrived in indigenous lands.

Regarding this specific case of the original poster here, though, it is a western (I suppose) person asking about the common 'hyperspace is closed' issue, to which I personally felt it made more sense to talk about this case (hence the tips and FAQ link) instead of discussing indigenous knowledge, but thats only my take on it

@Endlessness: I can't argue with what you're saying.

But I need to point out that while I have only a little info about the Amazonian people in general, I do have quite a bit of knowledge about the Yanomama tribes which were pretty much the last ones to be contacted by missionaries.

These people really do know what they're doing with their Epena. The fact that they take it so much and it seems to cause no ill effects at all is proof enough that they know what they're doing.

I'm sure any western man interested in DMT would find it interesting to know what these specific indians do with it.

-f

@Endlessness: In my opinion, the reason behind these differences which you have mentioned are simply differences in experience.

The people of one tribe might have had bad experiences with alcohol or are otherwise unable to handle it whereas others enjoy it. The same goes for Burgmansia; One shaman might be able to utilize this tool comfortably while another can't.

In regards to the issue of women using DMT: Certain tribes have understood that women can access hyperspace without using DMT. I personally testify to this. It is the males which require psychedelics. But even males can access hyperspace without DMT in other tribes.

These are all simply differences in experience and should not be taken as contradictions.

I don't like alcohol but I like cannabis. Another man might have the exact opposite taste. This doesn't imply contradiction to me.

-f

@Endlessness:It is true that DMT and 5-MEO-DMT are different. But the difference is not the same as the difference between DMT and Scopolamine.

So, I'm sorry but I do feel it is relevant.

-f

Oh yeah the yanomami are very interesting people, I had a friend live with them for months. They do have different types of snuffs, but they dont really contain dmt as the main ingredient, rather 5-meo-dmt in the case of epená, or bufotenine in the case of yopo, and they are snuffed (or possibly used intra-rectally by some tribes). So considering the original poster is talking specifically about dmt, and also about smoking it, so its a different drug with a different mode of ingestion in a completely different context.

Again, im not saying he shouldnt research, personally I find it all fascinating to research, but Im just talking specifically about his case im not sure how much its really relevant.

Maybe tribes that use ayahuasca, considering its dmt, would be more relevant ? Even though I still think that the fact that he is smoking and in a different context makes it hard to help in this case. Though looking at these ayahuasca using tribes or urban religions and the regularity of use, I think at least one key factor comes out that could help him out: They all take very strong care with integration of the experience. So these people wont just take the substance for the sake of it but they will come back with a big community support and try to put lessons in practice, to dedicate to life between the ceremonies. Maybe that could help with the op too..

To the OP: If you do try something that helps, dont forget to post to us



Your opinion is valid but I dont think it stands because from what I see, its not just about personal experience and simple opinion of different indigenous individuals, its about deep-rooted collective beliefs. Some tribes will have a real strong mind-set against plants such as brugmansia, not just because they cant deal with the experience, but because per-se they consider it negative. They will connect it to 'dark' powers in their views, and not a worthy plant to consume.

Same with alcohol, its not that some people like and some dont, Im saying that ritualistically some tribes will use it for spiritual purpouses, even mix with ayahuasca, while others will be absolutely against alcohol, and I mean this as a community decision/view/orientation, not as an individual taste.

Im just claiming some examples off the top of my head, and im not very good with memory I can assure you there are many more explicit ones if one researches a bit into it.



Where is the limit then ? What about bufotenine? Or psilocibin? Are they also just as relevant? If not, why not? if so, then why chosing 5-meo-dmt specifically?

Also, did you ever read anything about 'hyperspace (or the 5-meo equivalent) being closed' with 5-meo-dmt, for it to have anything to do with the OP? I honestly ask because I dont know, if so, it would be an interesting phenomenon

@Endlessness: Islam is totally against drugs and considers them the work of the devil. As someone who knows what Islam is all about I will tell you that the reason for the anti-drug stance is rooted in experience.

It was experienced that alcohol can have more negative effects on society than positive. So they banned it.

Western culture had a different experience with alcohol and hence a different view.

-f

I have experienced DMT, mescaline and 5-MEO-DMT successfully. I've tried bufotenine but could never get it to work.

From my own experience I can say that whatever applies to DMT applies to 5-MEO. I may be wrong so if anyone else has extensive experience with both please come forward.

But again from my own experience, that which applies to the DMT experience does not necessarily apply for the mescaline experience.

-f

Since this came up, I think it's only proper that I elaborate.

There are certain techniques for manipulating the trance state which DMT entails. These are inner techniques and they pertain to manipulating awareness when one is intoxicated.

Indigenous peoples, like the Yanomama, have mastered these inner procedures and as such they are capable of accomplishing extraordinary feats of perception using their Epena snuff.

These techniques are different for different psychedelics.

An obvious example is the Icaros which pertain to Ayahuasca. No one can deny the effect these songs have.

In order to master a drug like DMT one needs to learn the ins and outs of these procedures which the Western man calls esoteric.

For example, there is no doubt in my mind that the Huichol indians know what to do with Peyote.

We as western men have only encountered psychedelics recently and as such we haven't figured out what to do with them, not really. If anyone can disagree with this point, please come forward and tell us what you know.



Sorry to have drifted so far off-topic.

-f

i kind of agree with elis d'empty that you *may* be denying yourself. external pressures (morality, economy) mark many of our experiences, so that we carry affiliated anxieties with us even though there is no reason for it. but my closest experience is still very different, and i have little experience with D trips.

ultimately i agree with fwaggle and endlessness though. if this interests you, it would be very much worth looking into its historical usage - maybe either of them can direct us to any relevant material on this. and further, following endlessness's advice, use the time you read about it as time to step away from the substance itself. time to reflect, sediment, level, whatever you'd call it

I believe bad experiences as it relates to western
Use if dmt can always be traced to
misuse, missunderstanding or abuse of
the substance . Bad set and setting and dose issues
Are usually the
Culprits in most cases.

There are some esoteric factors involved but issues
with negativety and refusal of entry stem from very concrete
Issues.
Aside from the fact that for the most part we in the west
Have no real foundation in shamanism or navigation
Of non-physical realites. this is brand
New territory for domesticated Americans . There is a
Large learning curve .

It's quite possible that dmt,s arrival to the west
May be the salvation for the human species.
The rise of the mechanized modern society is what screwed
Everything up in the first place.
Perhaps dmt will teach us how to make things right in the end.

@sansans:

Florinda Donner-Gra - Shabono
Napoleon Chagnon - Yanomamö: The Fierce People
Yanoama: The Story of Helena Valero

Start with these but if interest sparks you may well need to read everything ever written on the subject. You may even go so far as going over there and seeing them for yourself, as many have.

None of these books deal with the subject of the snuff alone but there are enough bits and pieces to get some kind of understanding.

IMO, Shabono is the one to read for an idea about Epena use.

-f

thanks. i'll look into them, see what if i can find any freely. though i recently picked up a guide to all local native plants looking for something that may grow out here- don't think i'll have much luck from what it seems.

why are you still limited to the nursery with so many posts?