But you are turning this into a philosophical debate, snozzleberry. You know as well as I do that because our awareness is going to be extinguished one day no matter what we do, then nothing matters. It doesn't matter if you're a saint or a sinner. It doesn't matter what you do with your life. Do you see what I'm getting at? No matter what you do, the end result is death. So how can anything matter?

Why on earth would you twist this around and talk about car parts being essential to the car? Who is a car?!

If you aren't willing to enlarge your perspective you might as well tell me to go to hell.

-f

Wow...so I'm attacking you simply because I don't agree with your Nietzschean nihilistic worldview and becasue of that I may as well tell you to go to hell??? Why on Earth would I have to agree with the assertion that because you believe that our awareness is going to be extinguished one day and therefore nothing matters??? Not only is that faulty logic, but even if it weren't, why the hell would I have to agree with your assertion????? With each post you make, you reveal exactly how subjective our experiencing of reality is, yet you continue to speak in absolutes as though you have a corner on the truth (here's the thing; you don't and neither do I...no one does). Grow up and get over yourself.

@Eden: It should be more than clear what I'm saying but if it's not let me give it another go.

Regardless of any act a man may perform, death is the end result. You could spend your whole life climbing mountains, swimming across the atlantic or you might build a big ship and go to another planet. You will still die.

You could read the bible or quran a trillion times. You're still going to die.

You can debate car parts as much as you like. It still won't matter because you are going to die.

Unless you have some means to keep death at bay for as long as you wish, I'm afraid nothing matters.

-f

So Snozzleberry, does this mean you are denying death?

And when did I say you have to agree with me? I requested that if you are going to take part in a meaningful debate you need a bigger perspective, and now I can add that you also need more patience.

How is death subjective? Who has experienced death?!

-f

I think you may have missed the dripping sarcasm is some of fwaggle's replies, like:

@ragabr: I had to struggle fiercely to keep sarcasm to a minimum because I seem to be dealing with a super-sensitive crowd that takes offense at the drop of a hat.

-f

I'm not denying death...I'm not making any statements about death...do you know conclusively what happens after biological activity ceases? cuz I sure as hell don't. We weren't discussing death, we were discussing the significance of subjectivity and experiences in light of death. You keep moving this around to suit whatever argument you are trying to move onto in any given post.

No one posting here has experienced full death, so short of saying physical biological activity within the body ceases, how can you say anything about death? I merely said that your nihilistic viewpoint is not one I share...the phenomenon of death does not, to my mind, render all things meaningless, most certainly not life.

I also find it amusing that you would come here with an inflammatory attitude, make the remarks you've made and accuse us of being "super-sensitive"

Aaaaaand I find it amusing that engaging in this debate just turned me into an infinite being...kinda ironicle ain't it?

If you will:


Therefore I make the following statement: I reject your definition of "matter".
It seems to me that your entire belief system is built around your fear of death.

Couldn't have said it better meself

@Eden: You are somewhat correct. The foundation on which I have assembled my knowledge is the awareness of death. Not the fear of death.

Without the awareness of death I would start granting importance to cars, chicks, money, booze and practically everything under the sun. The awareness of death is what keeps me sober and sane. The awareness of death is what keeps me locked on target.

-f

Though it seems you are ignoring the beauty highlighted by death: life.

Can I just please clarify again for everyone that I don't want to force my views on anyone and if at any point I come off as a jesuit missionary, well I'm not one.

Not that it's even possible for someone to force their views on someone else over the internet anyway.

-f

@Eden: Without the awareness of death my life would lose it's sense of beauty.

Do I come off as some depressed nihilist black metal type who has given up on life? I don't think so. I love life and I cherish every instant because I know the whole thing could end at any instant.

-f

Well, that sounds nice and all, but why then such an emphasis on avoiding death as the only thing that matters?

Only your self will be annihilated, but the atoms that make up the self will still be there, just less structured - and as you have said earlier everything is awareness. In essence the awareness will still be there according to your definition of it.

Life seems to be it's own end in a way; we live to live, to evolve and to fight death as long as we can and then give the next generation the torch and hope that they have a good chance at continuing on to carry the light. My philosophy on the matter is that since I believe that all things are connected and perpetually interacting with oneanother, affecting each other, that what we do has a lasting effect on the universe. Where it leads to is not clear but in my view we should strive towards higher order, higher structures, higher intelligence and consciousness etc. Thereby adding more light and energy to the side of life and taking it away from the side of non-life or inanimate matter. Life IMO matters, and higher-order life matters more. I am generally not the type of person to go for hierarchies but in this case I find for me there is one present - a hierarchy of complexity of living things: The more complex a being you are the more you can affect the universe, the more energy you can refine and touch. And this is what you are.

Love
Enoon

fwaggle ill admit i havent read this whole thread as its 2am, but.

Have you given much thought to having children?

and have you had any near death experiences in your life? And i dont mean breakthing through on dmt.

@Eden: There is no way to avoid death. That is the whole point.

It doesn't really make any difference what death is. What counts is to know that it's there and it's inevitable, whatever it is.

In my opinion, any school of philosophical thought whose foundation is not the awareness of death is total crap.

The awareness of death is invaluable to a shaman. Any one of them will tell you this.

-f

@Eluna: I don't understand the question.

If you're asking me if I want children the answer is no. Children are a horrendous burden. To have children would effectively end my days of exploring awareness.

-f

The bosses have decided it's best I not edit my posts, so to answer your second question yes. I've been involved in quite a few accidents. But I never experienced any kind of special perception other than blacking out for a while.

-f

@Enoon: I think at death we are made to give up our awareness and it goes off to be incorporated into the universe.

Some claim that there are ways to keep that awareness even after death. But this does not mean immortality as there is no way to keep the physical body running indefinitely.

Those who make these claims believe that death is like entering hyperspace and never being able to return. They believe that if a man is well acquainted with the unknown he may have a chance to fight for his awareness. But this would actually be a very challenging task. Hyperspace will dissolve the man sooner or later and his awareness would disperse slowly as he forgets himself and becomes hopelessly lost.

-f