Hi all,

There's always a bucketload of ideas for experiments. And it is absolutely amazing when people do such experiments, for instance side-by-side tek comparisons. SWIM is normally full of ideas but as of lately (and gotta say aaaargh! here because this "lately" is dragging for a year now) he has no time and no money to devote in experiments. Still, ideal flow all the time and he often forgets them as well. I thought it would be a good idea to make a thread where people can post their experimental ideas so that others who feel like experimenting can get some idea and in the end bring something back to the community.

The experiments can be categorised in quite a few ways;

1. There can be rough measurement analyses, such as solubility of various dmt salts in solvents. SWIM developed the FASA tek some time ago and the initiative was the he first measured the solubility of DMT fumarate in acetone, IPA, ethanol and methanol.

How about other measurements? how much, say dmt acetate methanol/acetone/MEK butanol/ethyl acetate can hold? Or how much e.g. mescaline tartrate can dissolve in water?Acetone? etc. These tests are of utmost importance and I believe that great breakthroughs in extraction strategies await to be developed.

2. Tek comparisons? We have seen quite a few, often A/B vs STB, but there are so much more to do. Once SWIM found that when dmt fumarate is dissolved in water and it is based with sodium carbonate the freebase dmt crystallises out of the basic solution. Endlessness recently made a comparison between this water crystallisation/precipitation method and the sodium carbonate paste (pulling the freebasse with acetone) method. What is interesting is that when dmt fumarate is dissolved and based with sodium carbonate, the freebase precipitates. When one does the same thing with dmt acetate no precipitation occurs! But on the forums I read some days ago that if dmt acetate is dissolved in water and this is based with sodium hydroxide then the freebase precipitates!

There you have it therefore; since a lot of people (and many teks) produce dmt acetate, it would be interesting to see hard experiments on what can make the freebase precipitate out basic water. One could try other bases like calcium hydroxide and ammonia and see whether crystallisation/precipitation occurs in an aqueous dmt-acetate solution.

3. Bioassay tests + combinations - anything goes here, and this is a well-covered area here in the Nexus.

4. Extraction strategies? SWIM and few others have been thinking of ways to break the mucilagenous gooeyness of cactus, focusing on the use of enzymes. Enzymes that can break down proteins, polysaccharides etc can be purchased and incubated with moist cactus powder. Even malted barley (it has enzymes for protein and polysaccharide breakdown) could be mixed in watered cactus powder and left to "brew" to see whether it reduces the gooeyness.

I would love to see more experiments on MHRB clean-up and fining. Imagine this theoretical tek; Acid cook MHRB, then clean up the brew from tannins, polyphenols and proteins with gelatin fining. Remove precipitates. Then apply a fining agent that attracts negative charges, like isinglass to precipitate more unwanted stuff. Remove precipitates. Then apply a fining agent like bentonite or irish moss that precipitates positively charged particles, such as dmt as it is in acidic solutions and keep the precipitates; then analyse how much of the alkaloids are in the final precipitates and how much is left in the cleared-up brew

5. Other ideas? ron posted about the enteric coating of capsules and it would be great if people experiment to see whether it makes any difference in the assimilation of substances. Tons of to-do ideas here!

Anything else? please share and please EXPERIMENT!!!!!!!!1

This is a great idea inf! I had once made a thread about this but it progress.. Here's a few ideas I also had:

Side by side:

1- Extraction of Mescaline acetate vs mescaline hcl (they can be compared in terms of yield amounts, looks, and bioassay to see difference in effects. Bioassay could be done with both impure acetates and impure hcl, and also with washed/recrystalized acetates and hcl)

2- Difference between a BLAB with the acid soak and an STB of the same kind without the acid soak (I have a feeling the acid part makes very little to no difference but only testing would tell)

3- Normal A/B extraction vs THP based A/B extraction

Solubility tests:

1- Solubility of harmalas (with numbers, not just 'soluble/not soluble' kind of data)
2- Solubility of dmt (also with numbers)
3- Solubility of 5-meo-dmt
4- Solubility of dmt n-oxide in warm naphtha and in limonene


Other tests:

1- Formation of harmala red (does it form only with harmaline or also with harmine? What about the formation of it in different salt forms, and freebase? What about formation of it in different solvents such as limonene, IPA, Acetone, Ethanol. Can it be reverted with a zinc reduction? What about bioassaying it, is it active, does it inhibit MAO)

2- Developing a new harmala tek to bypass annoying filtering. (An idea I want to test: Extract in a typical A/B with limonene, salt out with vinegar. This should get rid of many impurities. Then proceed from there by manske to get rid of vasicine/vasicinone which hopefully will already be much easier filtering, and base precip for hopefully pure harmalas)

3- Developing a good tek for bufotenine crystals.



For sure more but right now these are what I can remember

Whoa! Can any knowledgeable person please talk more about bentonite and Irish Moss? I was originally interested in bentonite as an alternative to egg/gelatin/animal product filtering steps in cooking Ayahuasca... but I have never found sufficient information. Thanks!

And, Infundibulum, great thread, thank you!!

I drink bentonite daily. I consume quite a bit of it over the course of a year. I never knew it could be used to help me in my extractions. I wish I knew more about Chemistry.

I'm one of the self tought monkeys on the nexus. I consider myself a pretty talented monkey though. Taking the info in bits and pieces at a time there is no tek in the Wiki that I cant do well, especially if the tek is well written.

I think this is a great idea Infundibulum. I wish I could be of more assistance. I'm following this thread and what comes out of it with intrest.

Thanks for the replies everyone! I really hope that more people will be doing research here on the Nexus. And the Nexus deserves to be more research-oriented. I believe that it is sad that only a handful of people do research. In the past there were a lot of experiments going on that formed the basis of new and revolutionary teks which was a significant departure from the standard A/B and STBs.

As far as bentonite and irish moss are concerned, they can be bought from home brewing supplies shops. They are used to clear up wine and beer from haze to give a clearer product. This often is for aesthetic reasons. Both provide a large negatively charged surface onto which positively charged stuff (e.g. dmt) bind. Upon binding, they start coagulating each other into big visible complexes that slowly precipitate.

I am more familiar with the use of irish moss,a seaweed that you add in boiling water for 15-20 min and it releases negatively charged polysaccharides. The most common use is in beer making where it is added in the boiling beer (pre fermentation) to bind to, coagulate and precipitate proteins.

If either is to be used in MHRB extractions I'd advice to:

1. Acid boil as usual, pool all the boils together and reduce if necessary.
2. While it boils, add gelatin to precipitate proteins and other crap
3. Let the brew to cool and precipitates to settle.
4. discard the precipitates. The brew should be clear.
5. Bring the brew to a boil, then add the irish moss (1-2 gramms/5 litres of brew) and keep on boiling for 15-20min.
6. Strain the brew through a sieve to remove the particles of irish moss (the plant material is useless since the polysaccharide has been extracted into the brew)
7. Wait until the particles settle. With a bit of luck and if all goes according to the plan, the precipitated particles should contain the actives.

8a. basify and extract the clear brew - to see whether anything is left in the water
8b. basify and extract the precipitates to see whether the alkaloids got indeed precipitated with the irish moss.

If we could have a brainstorming session about what we actually know about DMT and what we don't, then we might be able to locate areas of further exploration.

1) we know how to extract it in a veriety of different ways (STB, FASA/FASI, A/B, Ayahuasca)
2) we can potentiate it with MAOI's (harmine, harmala, harmalol, tetrahydroharmine, passionflower, [also SSRI's?!] )
3) we can convert it to DMT fumarate
4) we can purify it with recrystalisation

but what we don't know is:

1) much about other salts of DMT. hydrochloride, acetate, malate, citrate, fumarate.
2) what other species are likely to contain DMT, what link there is, if any, to why it is found in many different species.
3) if the compound causes any lasting, permement change in the pineal gland

Any more??

Potentially, what other salts of DMT could be prepared?

DMT: sulphate, sulphite, nitrate, nitrite, hydroxide, cyanide, peroxide, bromide, carbonate, perchloride, chloride, permanganate, silicate, bicarbonate, .....

Yea how about FAQ's? There is tons of questions that are asked again and again. Sometimes because the asker is a lazy dog instead of a reckless monkey, but more often because it takes many, many hours of studying the threads to come up with clearcut and definitive answers. Especially if one has not much in depth knowledge and understanding about chemistry in general, it can be a bitch to find a suiting tek.

It would be a start if we could work out the most common teks into more detail, so to provide an 'instruction manual' and database of complete reports and all that (we need for comparison and troubleshooting). Everyone who likes to join the research can then follow the instructions and then post the requested results, pictures, really... whatever data the experts decide is usefull. I bet there is allot of monkeys who would love to join such experiments aimed at safety, quality, quantity etc. It would be wonderfull to see how everybody fills the databases and how projects grow.

Such research is already going on, it just has to be better organised so people know: what, why, how.
Allot of ideas and data is already in the history threads.
I will think about it again later.

ahm regarding FAQ:

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/FAQ


As for updating/enhancing the teks so they are better explained and with pictures and what not, that is a good idea.

Well, with the shit-storm over FV and their apparent failure to deliver meaningful quantities of THH in their extract(s), SWIM would like to see someone knowledgeable in chemistry comment on his suggestion in another thread of using electrolysis to reduce harmaline to THH. Two folks commented that the suggestion has promise. The questions SWIM has is what material to use as the anode/cathode. Zinc?? That could easily be obtained from an old battery. Something more benign could be used as an anode and cathode if it is the hydrogen bubbles that are doing the reduction.

Would elemental zinc end up in the product if used? How would SWIM test to see if the reduction occurred...would black-light fluoro color change from green to blue be sufficient?

SWIM has a burning desire to try this - but is a chemistry novice. SWIM can envision an apparatus that will isolate the reduction to only the harmaline containing solution yet conduct electricity across a barrier to complete the circuit. That's not an issue. With some reliable guidance SWIM would do THIS experiment!!!

N.B.

I love the wiki, beautifull effort. Much thanks to you also.

But (yea) your link shows me only general dmt related FAQ's. Much of the answers are links that would have me end up lost in the threads, wondering and pondering great ideas by others, completely forgetting about my original questions... about what equipment to use, what solvents, how to mix, separate, wash whatever...

I was wondering how we could make it easier for people to choose and then do a certain tek or slight variation therefoff. Because for example i find myself sometimes completely puzzled by all the options avaible. Sure i will find my way, as i most often do ( eventually ) but if i were to post the complete procedure with carefully selected (critical) details (about equipment, chemicals, temperatures, handling, results, bioessay etc.) then it would be allot easier for others to follow and/or take it from there. If everybody would post 'their procedure' in a 'selected format', then soon a database would form. Such posts could be titled (labeled) a specific way, so using the search engine would provide the database. Also questions could be labeled, so to povide a FAQ list per subject, again through the search engine. Would be easy to redirect the lazy dog and reckless monkey to a certain thread, where they can become wiser. Would it work?

Anyone have suggestions to explore in more detail?
Or we still brainstorming?

Thats the spirit : )

I had also thought of using this method to reduce harmaline to THH although I thought of using graphite electrodes just in case metal contamination could be formed. I will give this a try in the near future and see if this works - just need to get my Rue extraction going first.

I think this is relevant to this thread:

How much boiling of caapi is really necessary?

possibly somewhat related to this topic - is there a template by use of which bioassays could be easily compared to each other while giving a quick overview for those that just want to scan over these things and details for those that would like to see what happened? I mean sure we have a lot of bioassay reports here but very few are really done in a way that you can compare them to each other. Do we have an established system for this or is it desirable to have one? What do you think?

Especially when experimenting with badly documented extractions such as mushrooms for example I'd like to be able to record and compare the experiments I do. I can establish something myself for this purpose of course, but someone said there was something like this already existent on the nexus...?

Maybe they meant this thread: Creating a Blind Test Protocol: Red/jungle vs white vs yellow dmt?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

How about 10 minute ground peganum harmala seed boils versus the proposed 30 minutes. I've done 3x 20min boils and had 'great' yields.