I'm not sure. I think we have a hard time realizing that there might be some benefits as we are coming from the land of cigarettes, which are obviously pretty nasty things.

I was pretty shocked when I was reading 'The Cosmic Serpent' by Jeremy Narby to hear how sacred that Shamans in the Amazon treated tobacco. I know they use it to blow smoke in aya ceremonies, but they also use it by itself and swallow it in some form to perform healings. So I think from their context they would disagree that it is an enemy. One shaman in the book claims it can show the reality of things and it is the "Son" of the the "Mother" that is Ayahuasca. So it doesn't even appear to be used totally as a ceremony type thing, but as an actual psychoactive substance w/o aya.

I don't see myself every using tobacco as I used to smoke and wrecked my lungs for a bit, but I'm willing to accept there could be some good uses that these Shaman have figured out.

I saw a show (Taboo, perhaps?) where after a yopo ceremony, the participants sat outside the hut passing around a fat cigar of the good stuff (real tobacco.

I don't see a problem with any substance, really. Moderation is key. Unfortunately, I'm an addict. I greatly enjoy smoking most of the time, but I realize how burdensome it can be. I feel had I been using psychedelics beforehand, I never would have started smoking. Alas, tobacco was my gateway drug and now I've found something special through a causal chain of events. I can't vote either way.

Pretty sure. It is my opinion that tobacco is a tool, like all the other alkaloids and drugs. The amount of harm or benefit received from these substances depends on how they are used. Einstein smoked tobacco, if that says anything.

But it would probably be easier just to assume it's an enemy.

The key, according to Terence McKenna, is finding the right species.

South American tobacco has a much lighter toxicity, as it contains higher percentages of the indole alkaloids harmine and harmaline, and less nicotine content.

It would be interesting to do some tests on what chemicals/ what levels are present in both species.

yup weed is definetly addictive..

to me tobacco is neither an ally nor an enemy
its useless , i does not get me high so basicly it lie annoying my lungs for no reason
i've always preffered marijuana and say that its better to smoe marijuana as i might end up smoing a few joints a day rather than 20 to 30 cigarettes daily which was my previous consumption quantity when i was going very strong
so yes tobbaco is useless , resonless and absolutely worthless
hardly it can be called an ally or enemy from where i come from
marijuana always does it for me ,
all of this is my own perspective , i am terribly wrong and i appreciate it , all of you should decide for your own how helpful or negative it might be for you as for me its useless

I have no experience with other methods of administration, but when it comes to smoking I've never found myself needing tobacco when an herbal cigarette of different composition will do just the same. That's not a euphemism-- whenever I felt the need to smoke, whether because of nerves or because of alcohol, a hand-rolled mint and caapi cigarette was always much nicer than a tobacco one.

I defeated my addiction to cigarettes about a year ago, but have recently been experimenting with very high quality tobacco (organic, additive-free) rolled into cigarettes and I actually find tobacco to be quite entheogenic, complete with mild visuals. In fact, I find tobacco to be WAY more visual than nugz. I have been carefull to not fall back into a cycle of bottomless dependance by limiting myself to 1 cigarette every 1-2 weeks. If i smoke more frequently than that, the entheogenic effects are dramatically reduced.

my point is that tobacco can be either an ally or an enemy depending on the way its used. It has been used VERY destructively in years past (enemy) but now that I can approach tobacco without the chains of addition I consider tobacco an ally-- although it does make me sweat perfusely.

To anyone that sees it as an ally:

Is there really anything one gains from a "tobacco experience"?

Even if you were to ritualistically smoke tobacco during aya/mushroom/cactus ceremonies, does it genuinely give you any real gain during the experience, outside of just a quick high?

Yes for shamanistic purposes there is something to be gained out of tobacco - specifically mapacho, the logs of Nicotiana Rustica[/] used in the Upper Amazon; it seems to be a sort of "spirit food" that the maninkari (little beings that live inside living things) feast on. During an Achuma ceremony I "saw" these little beings in the grass moving toward the mapacho smoke with great excitement. It's also used shamanically to "feed" the "magic darts" that can be used to attack or defend against sorcery. Steve Beyer's book "Singing to the Plants" contains a great deal of information about uses of
[i]mapacho in Upper Amazonian mestizo shamanry.

If you don't find shamanry believable, then there are other uses for tobacco. Nicotine has been shown to be a powerful performance-enhancing drug. I know of at least one professional hockey team that wraps Copenhagen inside the skates, around the feet, so it can absorb subdermally. Nicotine, in low quantities, stimulates release of dopamine, epinephrine, and adrenaline, causing a stimulating effect, and in larger quantities stimulates opiate and serotonin release. It also shows potential as an antipsychotic drug - around 80% of diagnosed schizophrenics use tobacco, and this use appears to be a form of self-medication. So yes there is something to be gained from a "tobacco experience".

Tobacco IMO is an ally. Nicotine's instant stress reducing capabilities are hard to match in my experience.

Smoke is thy enemy!!!

Any stress that nicotine relieves only comes back once the nicotine leaves your system (within 30 minutes). And once you come down from the nicotine "high" you are only going to be more stressed, because now there is a slight craving for more nicotine.

Nicotine is equally as addictive as heroin. To me this says a lot.

Don't you think it is possible that people saw this plant as a sacrament merely because of the fact that it was hitting reward receptor sights in the brain? People without scientific knowledge might interpret this feeling as "spiritual".

I sort of get the feeling you are projecting a personal bias towards tobacco here becasue you are addicted to it, or were addicted to it. That is understandable. To say that after the nicotine wears off you will be more stressed though is a subjective observation, based on individual circumstances..I dont ever remember feeling that way after smoking really good organic pipe tobacco my friend used to bring me grown by people she knew on the native reserve. it always relaxed me and made me feel just fine after..never more stressed out. I smoked it very infrequently and was never addicted to it. Everything changes when you build a physical dependancy to something like nicotine.

It is like telling me I will always feel more stressed out after the xanthines in my green tea I drink every morning wear off..which again in my case is not true at all. I quit drinking coffee for good. I dont usually have more than 1 cup of caffinated tea a day, because at one point I was severly addicted to coffee and would drink rediculous ammounts of it all day long. I would get headaches and feel tired and stressed after a few hours without it. It took me a long time to finally cut it out all together. After a while without it though I can now have 1 cup of greeen tea or mate every morning and it energizes me without any noticable crash and i can miss days and drink herbal tea instead without negative reprocussions.

I've never tried heroin, but in my case; pot has been harder to quit than nicotine for me. Substances effect everyone differently.
I, like fractal; don't get more stressed once the nicotine has worn off. I did when I was a daily smoker for a year and tried to quit, but caffeine would make me pretty anxious and uncomfortable if I tried to quit right now too. I like my caffiene and it's helping me in the morning so I don't mind the addictiveness to it.

http://bioprin.posterous.com/?tag=vitaminb3

I have been looking into this more and I heard someone randomly in an unrelated talk talking about how powerful of a medicine tobacco actually is, and then talked about the link between metabolism of nicotine and vitamine B3..so I looked into it more and found that^..amongst others..just google nicotinic acid..niacinamide, B3 and nicotine..

Interestingly, tobacco also contains one of the largest mineral profiles compared to other plants..so periodic mini doses in some tea is probly very healthy..

Seems there are many benifits to tobacco when used in a certain way..sad that it gets so demonized by an uninformed public who only see the poisonous cigarettes and those who become slaves to them..

I have to wonder if tobacco is really bad or is it the chemicals they use to refine it and augment it that makes it so bad. I am reminded of the Native Americans who smoked it for many years and the fact that they allegedly had a very low cancer rate before their civilization came to a end. I assume that tobacco we have today has so many chemicals and additives that it shouldn't really be considered tobacco anymore. It seems that tobacco has just become the carrier for a cocktail of chemicals. I dont know so much about things just a amateur perspective.

folkWhen I was in school taking a class on herbal and natural medicines I brought up tobacco, but noone really wanted to touch it..even the herbalist dont seem to know anything substancial about using it in a positive way..it is kind of overlooked as an herb in modern herbalism..

Everyone seems to use it though...it's like a catch 22...

I remember when I was studying anthropolgy in college I was stunned at how many people seemed to be using it(when it was not historically traditional) even though they had kept mostly to they're cultural roots..it is used in africa..sadhus smoke it with ganja in india..it is used in haiti in Vodou rituals..

All these cultures that still have roots in some sort of folk practices seem to still use tobacco..or adopt the use of tobacco..

no.

that's a good point. unfortunately as are so many other useful plants.

wet tobacco leaves can be used as a topical pain reliever and bug bite reliever

I voted ally too.
I consider cigarets enemy but here we speak about the real essence of tobacco, which I consider mapacho or even good cigars (plain natural tobacco leaves) to be representant of human preparation.
It has some quality and when used in special occasion is very valuable admixture (as far as my own experience goes) for a lot of alcaloids.
I never experience the concentrtazted mapacho juice though nor plan to do it so far. But smoking pipes or even cigars while in a lunar state of mind, it def has some grounding qualiity. my reckoning is that again like any other plant ally it has to be used wisely (without abusing both the plant and self).