not in a million years would i want to drink with a cult like santo daime. maybe im being a judgmental prick but everything ive read and heard from friends of members it sounds dreadful and totally religious. i think its silly when people have the attitude that they cant/ dont want to drink aya unless they are in Peru or with a S.Daime type group! thats absurd to me. personally id trust my own reading, research, and intuition before id trust members of a religious cult and be forced to participate in their catholic prayers and dances. who the heck wants to dance on ayahuasca!?

i have a friend that i adore but she is totally skewed with her thoughts on me doing aya alone at home from being friends with Daime members. she just thinks everything they do is so right and my practice is questionable! that really gets my goat!:evil: so some cult makes up a ritual, and renames ayahuasca and now there fucking Yoda?

see... i get all heated lol!



im not sure that that is true zubidlo you might want to check that fact. some groups dont even brew their own ayahuasca they have it shipped from Peru.

your point is taken, olympus. would you also avoid doing it with a shaman, then? would you be skeptical of their hocus pocus and interpretations?

no not at all. i will be in Peru for the second half of 2011 for 6 months and you bet ill be drinking ayahuasca in the mother land! i just dont feel thats the only way. there;s nothing hocus pocus about it. its a fascinating example of cultures and customs that have been practiced for millennia.

also i shouldn't bash on Daime. i have some insights to them and its not my cup of tea but other people gain much joy and healing from their church/cult. i do get agitated when people act like they're ayahuasca experts and you should do it their way. that drives me bananas.

also you inquired as to whether some nexus members have drank with Santo Daime or been part of the church and the answer is yes. i dont want to write there names as its not my place to, but do a search and the thread should come right up.

olympus, you say you get agitated when people act like they're aya experts, yet you don't seem to feel that way about shamans. i suppose they are not just acting, right?

i'd love to hear about your experiences, or others' experiences, doing aya with shamans. i've read some experiences on the net, though not much here on the nexus, which i like because of its population of mostly rationalists.

exactly! shamans arent religious leaders they are alchemists. they are masters of their environment. they are the first pharmacists to walk the earth.

they will guide your journey through their experience from having such a deep understanding of these plants and their effects. they dont tell you what to do and when, they dont make you do it there way or partake in prayer or chants, they just ask you lay down so you dont hurt yourself or others and tune into the group using their song to comfort and at times intensify the groups experience.

ayahuascqueros are quite amazing.

don't take me too seriously. I just saw that huge cauldron with kilos and kilos of wine and chacruna leaves being cooked on documentary and then like five people got thrashed for 15 hours. When they screamed from horror shaman blow mapacho smoke to their faces and mumbled some crazy drone tune. Seemed quite an experience


Regards.

I certainly agree that dogmatic religion is no good-- and recognize all of the crap that ruling priest classes have put the world through-- but using that as a single reason to discount religious teachings is almost like saying the concept of democracy is shit because it gave us Hitler once (not that that couldn't be a valid point. Who doesn't love a little anarchy instead?).

In the Gateless Gate, there this a handful of lines that always struck me:

"When one enters this condition one's ego-shell is crushed and one can shake the heaven and move the earth. One is like a great warrior with a sharp sword. If a Buddha stands in his way, one will cut him down; if a patriach offers them any obstacle, one will kill him; and one will be free in this way of birth and death."

For every side of a religion which gives power to a priest class, there is a side which throws the entire idea to the wind. The meaning of the above bit is that once you enter into Mu, you will know the path to enlightenment, and even if the teachings of the Buddha himself seem to contradict that, you will strike them down and continue on the correct path. You are supposed to know for yourself; this is the first step.

One thing I think is really interesting about this discussion is that I definitely have felt all of the different point of views which the spice has brought for you all. I feel like I really understand them, having been shown them too, but of course we have each selected a different aspect of the spice's teachings as the one most important to us. Neat, eh?

No I would never want to join such a religious organization.

But I did drink ayahuasca with a shaman once. It was interesting. I did it more out of curiosity then anything else. I see the value in the ritual it creates a very good set and setting and a shaman is a great guide who can help one integrate an experience. I might not agree with their explanation to whats going on. But that's fine and may be difficult to discuss due to language issues and cultural backround anyway.

I've had powerfull experiences where i was absolutely convinced that god was speaking to me, where i felt i was in the presence of god.
Yet i am a sceptic as well.
So i may believe or feel certain things, but at the same time i will always have these doubts.
I believe in things, yet i doubt them. And i don't consider that to be a contradiction at all. It's just realising that you can never be sure.

DMT has certainly not reinforced my religious views or inhibited them. DMT has been a passing interest more than anything else. I need to try drinking it at some point before I make my mind up completely. But freebase DMT is to short to allow me to get to the temple of the mind. I know large doses catapult you to strange landscapes, but that hasn't ever compared to the experience that I will describe below on mushrooms. I'm not knocking others experience as I believe we all may have ally's or tools that we better bond with. Mushroom and have typically been that ally for me....

I've done a lot of psychedelics over the years (ok in comparison to some on this board I'm nothing..) Only twice, really once have, I had a full blown religious experience. It was with mushrooms.

One night I sat in meditation with mushrooms and pushed the limits of how deep I could go. I began with a steady focus on performing kriya pranayama. Slow controlled breathing on the inhale and exhale almost twice as long. On the inhale breath you visualize light rising from the base of the spine up to the third eye. On the exhale I imagined the light going the other way. Mushrooms were awesome for boosting this visualizing.

Soon my mind started becoming exceptional clear for a shroom trip. The visions started behaving completely under my control. At this point I decided to quit with the breathing exercises and completely immerse my mind in the light that causes the visions. I simply becan uttering the phrase, "What am I". I did it slow and methodical. I wasn't just chanting blindly. I was sincerely asking for anything to show my something.

As the questions was repeated the visions stopped at what appeared to be a large temple door. I refer to this place as the temple of the mind. I've been here twice. On the occasion In question I then repeated the question again and the door and all visions stopped. It was total blackness. All feeling in my body was completely gone. I then asked the question again. The dark turned into white. This is very much like the clear light described in the Tibetan book of the dead and Timothy Leary and gang. I then asked the question again with a level of intensity that I had not the previous times.

What happened next has completely and profoundly changed me. I became this light. In the blink of an instant I became everything that was, has been, or ever will be. I was the alpha and the omega. Time was irrelevant. When I came out of this state over an hour had passed. the only thing from this state I remember was complete and total bliss...and a white light so intense that I could not exists out side of it. I only had 3 grams of cubensis mushrooms. A dose that does not even come close to ego death without meditation for me.

What do I make of it? Well it confirmed what I believed...I suppose. Although my inner scientist will always say, "but it was just drugged induced...."

The next night...falling asleep with no drugs I briefly fell into this clear white light. This time the experience only lasted a few moments. No drugs. Same experience. Of course my inner scientist says the the serotonin reuptake receptors probably also reuptake psilocin and this could be responsible the for enhanced mood for weeks afterwards and it could also explain the lapse into the clear white void.


How do I resolve the inner awe vs the inner scientist? I believe the awe. I believe we really are all one...but honestly I 'believed' it before mushrooms. Mushrooms allowed me to experience it in away that I had not imagined before.


If anyone wants to repeat this my advise is to eat the mushroom and let the trip set in naturally. Once you are comfortably past the come up anxiety stage then you can sit to meditate. I have been meditating for close to 10 years now and I think this played a huge part in my ability to maintain the level of focuse needed while the world collapses around you on shrooms. When I meditate with shrooms I will usually wait about an hour after the first effects. Then I'll meditate in various sitting poses for 3-4 hours. Then I get up and humbly respect this thing we call creation because I'm never any closure to really understanding it. Just more in awe..

Wow, so, was the shaman really able to see what you saw in your visions? Or did you have to tell him what you saw?

^^No I didn't talk to him about it. I didn't need to integrate anything. Personally his ritual pissed me off because it involved snuffing tobacco which made me puke and shit 10x more then I would have just taking ayahuasca. But he has that role I was saying.

This right here explains my frame of mind almost to a T. All I know for sure is by doing certain things certain results may follow (as per a certain Crowley quote) and sometimes I can't even come close to predicting the results/experience. I like to ponder multiple potential explanations without every fully excepting one specific interpretation. I may lean heavily one way on things of course. For example when I woke up this morning I feel confident that I am continuing this lineage that has been "me" and haven't had false memories planted in my brain . I am an agnostic through and through and really can't ever see describing myself ever as full on Atheist or Deist. However I reserve the right to change my mind in the future!

I've participated in ayahuasca ceremonies in Santo Daime and have several friends who are 'fardados' (members). I also have criticisms to some of the practices or structures, and its not my own way but I'm glad to have participated and experienced what I did. I rather prefer indigenous rituals or the experiences I have by myself or with close friends.

I understand when some people have problems with santo daime and other similar religions (like UDV), but I think they also have their value. It was thanks to these churches that there were made so many scientific researches with ayahuasca and eventually made it legalized in Brazil (and increase the knowledge of the safety of regular usage for the international community). Also I've seen people who had been completely lost in life and through their participation in Daime and through the support of their community, where able to overcome addictions or other serious problems.

A few things that I personally dont agree with in daime:

- Use of uniform (I think it unconsciously creates a 'we who use uniform are superior' attitude)
- Too much lyrics and very little purely instrumental music (when I take psychedelics, I want to go beyond my typical language associations, and I feel lyrics can often hold one down by leading one's mind with these pre-existing words and concepts)
- Often people try to convince others that their way is right and others are wrong (though thats not for everybody in daime, some are very open minded people). Attempt at ownership of what can and cant be done with ayahuasca.
- Arbitrary rules with evidence-less arguments (girls and guys absolutely have to be separate, cant cross your arms and legs, cant walk around a bit if you feel like, etc, and all with bad arguments related to 'energy' which of course nobody can really explain or give evidence to except with falacious arguments, such as appeal to authority or generalization of subjective experiences)
- Way too much light during the ceremonies, I preffer dark or low indirect lighting
- etc

But again, while its not my way, as long as they are not affecting me negatively, telling me whats right or wrong and keep their faith to themselves, im fine with it. I knew some daime people that I've gotten in big arguments with because they were trying to 'convert' me, but I have a couple of friends from Daime who are some of the nicest people I've ever met, and they feel its their way and dont judge mine, so I can only respect it.

Personally I agree with malaclypse and polytrip in the sense that I dont fall for one belief-system but rather keep a more open perspective. I have a skeptic self and I doubt everything, try to be critical of everything including myself. I have learned a lot from psychedelic experiences but I dont blindly trust every realization I seem to have on psychedelics because I know it can also be wrong, or misinterpreted. Same for science, or my emotions, or whatever. I just make my own map of reality taking into account information from all these sources and trying to find a balanced and healthy self-critical fluid world view.

I know that no matter what explanations we give to the universe, there is always a Mistery behind existence, which manifests itself in me through a sense of awe, like looking into starry sky and almost losing breath from the unimaginable scales of our universe.

DMT didnt make me more or less religious, it just reinforces this 'open' perspective, and I know that whatever is or isnt 'out there', I still have to be pragmatic and live day by day, fulfill the duties I have. Since Im alive, gotta try to do the best I can with this opportunity I was given. We dont always get it right but we're trying, right?

I said earlier that if you don't meditate when you take dmt then it's potentially a waste, i do stick by that, but also in meditation you throw away your own beliefs, everything.

When you really experience 'God' in my opinion the idea God isn't there at all, there's just total silence, completetion.
I don't feel it's a state that you can later doubt & wonder if it was real, you become it, or see you already are it.

Its not the question of isit real? for me its more that it is the only thing that is real.

That Bliss has a way of demolishing any possible trace of beliefs or doubts as it removes all need for anything, you're totally whole.

I would add that sometimes if you don't dance or roll in the grass while smoking DMT, it's also a waste.

..aannnnd soooo..your way is the only way to get there right???

DMT has shown that aliens are real..I can fly..george bush is probly a reptilain..obama as well..I come from pleiades and pineal weirdness is soooo cool

can you at least add rolled eyes icon so you don't scare impressionable people.