I just get this feeling more and more, that our civilisation is collapsing on itself. I see an increase in political extremism, hate and bigotry almost everywhere in europe and in the USA as well. It's like the social contract, that's supposed to bind us, is being terminated. Shortsightedness and pure egotism is being promoted and cultivated as if it's a democratic virtue. Like the people on strike in france for instance: they're upset because they no longer can retire at 60....How stupid can you get? These people will live to see the day themselves, that because of a shortage in staff they'll be forced to wear diapers for weeks on in their at that time unmanned geriatric accomodations. Maybe they'll even be tied on their bed's to prevent them from falling. That stuff is happening already in some places. And all because they don't want to work for another TWO years. They want to retire and they want it NOW, regardless of the consequences, even for themselves. And everywhere in europe and america, politicians are very, very afraid for these sentiments, so they're very keen on giving the egotistic couch-potatoes of the world everything they want. Again..regardles of the consequences on the longer term. And when the budget deficit runs too high it's either being ignored like in the USA, or people with a foreign background are being blamed, like in europe.

And the other thing is: I don't see how you can have a society where hate is being preached for years on, without at some point people resorting to violence, feeling legitimized to do this by their leaders.

There is just so much hate out there, that i often feel that from here on, things can only get worse.

Is there nothing left for us to do, than to resign in the downfall of the western civilisation? I once believed that we had some great values that would never fade: equality, human rights, solidarity, personal freedom for everyone, to mention some.
What will be left of those things, when our society's will plunge into poverty, social unrest and political instability?

^^ not much i guess.

Sometimes i am quite convinced this really is the reason i dont want to have children.
Lets celebrate optimistic pessimism

cheers

The thing with the current western system is that the harder things get, the harder we make things for eachother. We stop taking care of eachother and start looking out for only ourselves.

Especially as when we, in hard times we push consumerism harder and all that does is eliminate the natural resources that gave us "wealth" in the first place without any regard for the future.

I don't know. I try and remain as positive as possible. I see lot's of changes in people in my area for the better as well. Maybe I just live somewhere pleasant. I get a really good feeling going to the local farmer's markets and seeing everyone there. Seeing all the enthusiasm for having a great local community in the shops in the area. So many people I have 0 relationship with that seem like if I got to know them I could really be good friends with them. I know this to be impossible with the number of people there are and I am fine with my group of friends that can expand organically. Not that I don't see hate and bad things around, but I see more positives than negatives.

It seems it is more when I read a newspaper or watch some TV where I see all this utter crap, bigotry etc. Like the whole Fox news scenario that happens here in the states. It is really depressing and can get me in a funk for sure. I think more that there is just so much change going on very rapidly now. It happens on both ends. I see more and more beautiful stuff coming through and more and more bad shit as well.

That said I don't think that Western civilization needs to stay up for the world to come out for the positive. Maybe it will crash and burn, but we will benefit as humans in the long run. Or maybe we will be able to modify it with new love and insights and turn it into something more beautiful. I don't want to resign myself that there is no hope and want to continue with the idea that we can pull through this.

It is just our current model collapsing. It happened many times though history. A better one usually appears. Everything will be fine. No Worries.

too many lawyers, special interest groups and politicians ingrained more and more into their positions of power....regular people count for less and less, and they (that is, us) are spoon-fed spin and propaganda all day long. And other countries copy this model?!?!

As they said in the '60's, they need their punch spiked!

That's basically it. Our model of continuous economic growth has an end in sight. It is unsustainable, and is a myth. This myth is what has maintained us through the last quarter of a century. But it is collapsing as all myths eventually do. It is a healthy process, but it will be painful for everyone.

it is falling..there is as big shift happening and people need to attune to that shift and learn to stop thinking and start feeling..the frequencies will either drive people nuts or they wont attune to them unless they first open the heart chakra. For a while I became skeptical but not anymore..those who cant move past pessemistic and negative thought loops will not be able to move into the new level that is becomming apparent. The old world is falling, in a way..in a way it is now our job to fall away from the old world..and instead of playing roles in the play of the dead world, we need to learn to write our own scripts, new stories informed within a space of heart-consciousness that will lead us into the living world of eden.

Money, politics,technology, social structures and govrnments etc-none of these things will be the answer, which we are already finding out. What is importnt is that you change your own state of being and learn to activate the heart, and allow it to become your compass..

An open mind with a closed heart is a very dangerous thing..

You know what's up Fractal. I'm glad somebody does.

Well at least we can see religion biting the dust anyway. The desperate will go down swinging, all the same.

i don't know much about this sort of thing...

but is capitalism not to blame?

a system that requires constant growth. mainly by the few, who are in charge. this constant growth can only continue by spreading the system elsewhere to new markets and new consumers and cheap new labour, and also by increasing the population. if that is failing then the quality or working conditions must drop. only the BOTTOM LINE matters.

the constant growth requires and consumes more and more precious natural resources. people are just consumers. it only matters that you can have more and more. people become selfish.

to me this seems totally unsustainable and as destined to fail massively sooner rather than later.

when will people wake up. damnit i hate thinking about stuff like this... i've just been blessed with the arrival of a son and this all despresses me.

My normal point of view regarding the subject: God fucking dammit.

My frequent point of view regarding the subject: If I blow stuff up, will it happen faster?

My current point of view on the subject: RIDING THE WAVE, BABY! WHOO!

I hope you're right my friend.
Because when i look around me, i often see a world that's already dead but that just doesn't know it yet.

If western civilisation as we've known it ends, something new may emerge to replace it. I would like to see something of a global civilisation emerging that has no boundaries and that doesn't exclude anyone...indeed not an empire of military, economic and political power, but an empire of the heart, a moral power so to speak.

I don't believe the future is that fixed though. We will have to give it our best effort if we want to make it work. And it WILL be a great strugle that WILL take sacrifices.

Many of those who've succombed to hate, will not easily be convinced that their way of thinking is a dead-end street. And some simply won't be convinced.

When the nazi's began to realise that they where losing the war, they became even more dangerous than they'd been before. They sent little childeren to the front and they started murdering as many people as possible.

I have always believed that true evil doesn't realy exist, that what we percieve as evil is only another side of fear or misery, that it's a pathological disorder. I'm still enclined to look at it that way. But i have to adjust my point of view on the severity of the dissease called hate.
Although the sun comes back every summer, bright as ever, many people never come back once the dissease of hate has completed it's grasp on their hearts and minds.
You can see a sad example of this in the israeli/palestinian conflict wich is dragging on for decades, where many powerfull figures even lack the will to just properly TALK about peace.
There, in many cases, our only hope can be for future generations to free themselves of this beast that has occupied their hearts.

Nevertheless fractal enchantment, thanks for the positive input.

I love this forum.

It's refreshing to be able to come to a place where people can see things for what they are. A lot of the people I've worked with or talked to are so blind to what is really going on in our society. And the really sad thing is, they don't even want to hear about how it's all falling apart. They're desperately clutching onto it with ears and eyes closed. I try not to think about it too much, because it inevitably makes me sad.

It does help to see it as a healthy process, even if a very painful one.

And so am i afraid of death..

Not to be the ying to everyone's yang, but things are ALWAYS BAD. And ALWAYS GOOD. Every generation since recorded history has gone down saying we are all going to hell in a handbasket!! There are serious problems in the world, arguably more serious than ever (I don't deny that), but despite the overmediatization of war and famine and disease and hardship, most people live healthier safer longer lives THAN EVER BEFORE. And not just in privileged developed countries (although certainly heavily weighted towards them.) AND we are living in (perhaps) the most peaceful time EVER! Don't let awareness of problems convince you that problems are more numerous or grave.

There is a lot to be changed in the world and a lot to be concerned about, but let's not get too down about the current state of affairs, without doing the exercise of putting it into context. Alarmism has a quick steep tipping point, and doomsayers HAVE NEVER turned the tide... So let's not concentrate on all the hardship and doom, but rather on how far we have come, and use that positive outlook as an impetus for change, and as inspiration that we CAN do it.

I have put these unpopular ideas out into the furnace, so let the flaming begin!

JBArk

PS - wow, never thought I would be the spokesperson of the moderate optimists!

http://awakeningasone.com/

L&G!!

lol

btw nice posts. I will let Fractal place my bets...

I feel very similarly to jbark. I live in a very sheltered/proactive area (intentionally) and it seems like everyone has the exact right level of challenge in their life. It sometimes seems like an underlying intelligence, a genius loci, has organized activity to lay the foundations to weather a coming storm.

On the other side, I rarely see any televised news and when I do, it's a complete shock. It describes a world completely at odds with that I directly experience. Also, people are going through really rough times right now, and we all know someone impacted by this recession. When anxious, people make really poor decisions. A lot of anxious people could make some really big poor decisions. The Midwest meth epidemic personally worries me, from the impact it's funding in Mexico, to the amount of suffering born of it in these gutted towns... I think that mental health counselor will be the number 1 needed job over the next 20 years. We all calm down, decide to do a safety check and take care of each other until we're ready to take that step forward together.