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1973tour
#1 Posted : 9/25/2010 7:34:11 PM

Drew


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So, reading up on the effects of DMT on the human body in equilibrium yielded interesting results. The human body breaks down DMT to Melatonin to induce better sleep.

DMT is released naturally in the body during:
-Birth
-Dreams
-Tantric Orgasm
-Death
-Deja Vu

So then, my question then becomes, if DMT is released naturally in the brain while you dream, is it possible to access hyperspace in a lucid dream state? I've yet to experience this so I cannot say for myself, just an interesting idea.

Also, someone was telling me about Deja Vu and how it actually relates to everyday waking consciousness. Obviously nobody can pinpoint the feeling exactly but what I think to be a very high possibility is a DMT flashback or flashforward. One theory is that Deja Vu is a form of psychological conformation or a sign that your life is on the right track, but for most of us, or at least for me, a Deja Vu experience feels like you're remembering something that you once knew. Most of the time, at least in my experience, I've been able to recall when I saw the initial event and every single time its been from a dream. Dreams and Deja Vu are connected in ways that I don't think I'm ready to fathom yet haha. I think also that dreams hold latent information from the future in some form of quantum consciousness.

If anyone is familiar with quantum mechanics then this might help you understand. Tachyons, are particles of light/energy/information that travel backwards in time. Its a highly quantum mechanical effect so to produce any sort of results working with tachyons there has to be an available quantum possibility field. When I say quantum field, I mean a place where every possibility is in superposition with each other aka a tripping or hyperspace state of mind. Anyway, since these particles can only be used in states of altered consciousness, it is my thought that moments of Deja Vu release tachyons into the past, into the dream world, affecting your dreams in the past, to give you a feeling of remembering something you once knew.

DMT is a definite awakening to the quantum world, and I would even venture further to say that hyperspace isn't anything but pure tendency. Lots have said that they can control it in higher states (LSD+DMT) but it is possible to control no matter what; usually its too overwhelming of an experience for the user to realize their potential. Quantum mechanics works on a very vague scale. It is a world built entirely on possibilities of consciousness.

Heres my Dimensions Map:

=0-3=Physical Reality

0- . -the first point. one single point of consciousness creating a primordial form of concentrated awareness on a single point in the void
1- ._. - dimension 1 is a line that connects two points to create the illusion of duality. Now there are two choices, seemingly, but they are still always connected by a line, making them one
2- ./_. - the 2nd dimension is a split in that line, creating a two dimensional plane
3- ./\_. - the third dimension is a fold in the split that creates space

=4-7=Mental (Perception) Reality

4- ._. - The fourth dimension is time. time exists as a line, moving forward and connecting the mental reality of 4th dimensional thought to the physical
5- ./_. - Dimension 5 is a split in the line of time, creating the visible perception of two possibilities at once. 5th dimensional awareness comes in altered states of consciousness that don't break through. LSD is common example of 5th dimensional awareness
6- ./\_. - Dimension 6 is a fold in the split line, creating the perception of all possibilities at once. This fold in the time line also creates time as a circle of awareness in which any event past present or future can be perceived.
7- . - The 7th dimension is every single dimension described above, comprised into one single point of awareness. The full 7th dimension is also known as our Physical Matter Reality (PMR). Going beyond this dimension of awareness is called breaking through.

=8-10=Dream Reality

8- ._. - The 8th dimension is a connection between 2 PMR's or a PMR and a NPMR (usually NPMR). Traveling down this line is DMT hyperspace until you get to the next point which in usually every case is a NPMR where thoughts happen instantaneously and your reality and your mind are one.
9- ./_. - Dimension 9 is a split in the hyperspace line usually creating something of a circuit to other NPMR's and PMR's through travel along the hyperspace line. Many worlds of thought become visible.
10- ./\_. - the 10th dimension is a fold in the hyperspace line creating a higher realm of existence. Space in the conventional sense of the word is not how the 10th dimension would be, but for lack of a better word we'll call it ethereal or angelic space

=11=Christ Reality

11- . -the 11th dimension is every single dimension of awareness comprised into one single point. Christ consciousness (or Buddha or Krishna or Yoda or whatever) is defined at this level of awareness. Let me explain this a little more.

In our 4 dimensions of reality, we exist in a single point of consciousness (at the 7th dimension) . so this point, which is our universe, exists in the "space" of a reality higher than it. Just like how we exist in the space of a reality that is higher than us. Make sense? Key:
* = our universe/and other universes
( ) = our immediate higher dimension, the 7th which is a single point in the 11th dimension;
[ ] = 11th dimension;
< > = hyperspace lines
? = NPMR's

[ (*) > ? < (*) > ? ]

Sorry if this is really confusing, but i find that there is a clear link between spiritual awareness (higher dimensions) and quantum mechanics. By the way, every single dimension described above is part of the quantum mechanics theory, so its not just some bullshit i made up, all of this is being studied right now by quantum scientists.

There are other links to quantum science found in the spiritual world that cannot be overlooked. After experiencing DMT, the mind cannot be the same. It is forced open to a new world of consciousness that includes what some might call "unnecessary awareness" or what I call "psychic awareness". Telepathy is a common occurrence for me on a regular everyday basis. I've been able to read thoughts and send thoughts easier after experiencing DMT, which leads me to ask: since DMT is so eye-opening and unlocks the possibilities of your mind, can it be used to train the mind into doing things its not used to? Telepathy, or a form of psychokinesis is such a pure thought in hyperspace that the mind is literally forced to accept it as it happens. In your state of suspended pure ego-loss, your mind accepts everything that it sees to the point of desireless-ness, allowing you to experience enlightenment for a brief period of time. In this state, I think its possible to train your mind to accept certain psychic occurrences to the point of true, unbiased phenomena, allowing you to then access their abilities during waking consciousness.

-= Quantum Mechanics Crash Course =-
Vocabulary:
-Entanglement- Two particles (or multiple) particles that share responses to stimuli, even across vast distances. What happens to one will happen to the other precisely at the same time
-Superposition- A particle in superposition is occupying every quantum state. To properly describe a particle in superposition, one must describe every possible quantum state as well as the probability of the particle being in that state
-Bose-Einstien Condensates- These particles are states of the quantum wave function that are visible to the eye. A Bose-Einstein Condensate is one particle in two places at once. One particle, in multiple positions.
-Wave Function- usually referred to as the "collapse of the wave function". This is also known as the act of observation. the wave function refers to a quantum state of a certain particle eg. superposition. When the particle is observed by any conscious being, the wave function collapses to a single point, no longer a quantum function, but rather a static particle. This is why when we experience DMT we see all the particles moving and shifting, visibly seeing the wave function of the quantum world. Also explains when we're sober we can only see our reality as solid and static, unmoving even though we know that this world isn't solid and its made purely of possibilities.

Telepathy I think is a quantum mechanical effect. Telepathy is when two conscious beings share one thought, whether one being sends or receives, its still the same thought occurring in two places at once. One reason I feel that we cannot share these psychic experiences normally with our everyday thought pattern is because we still observe the world and the very act of observing collapses the wave function. It collapses the possibilities of psychic experience.

-The Double Slit Experiment-
Scientists conducted an experiment. You can read about it online if this doesn't make sense, its really hard to describe.

When shot through two slits, particles show up on the wall as a pattern of two slits like this: | |
When Waves move through two slits a wave interference pattern is created: . , ; | | ; , . This is caused by the waves canceling each other out.

When electrons (particles) are shot through two slits an interference pattern is still created: . , ; | | ; , .
This is because of a quantum mechanical effect. So the scientists were clever and decided to shoot electrons through the slits one at a time so there could be no interference, but the same pattern emerged after an hour of this. So what actually happens is the electron is shot at the slits, is broken down into a wave of potential, goes through both slits, and neither at the same time (superposition) and interferes with itself to create the interference pattern.

This is where it can get messy haha. The scientists decided to take a peek to see which slit the electron went through when it was shot one at a time. They put a measuring device near the slits to record the data but when they ran the experiment the original pattern of two slits emerged: | |. There was no interference pattern. The electron behaves differently when observed.

Electron Slit pattern w/o observation: . , ; | | ; , .
Electron Slit pattern w/ observation: | |

So the electron actually behaves differently as though it knows its being watched.
It is for this reason we cannot access our psychic abilities. We have to observe them for them to be accessible but the very act of observation collapses the wave of potentials where the abilities exist. However, in the state of hyperspace, you are ego-free pure unaltered possibility, literally living in the quantum world where every psychic power is accessible. People who have experimented with LSD+DMT would say that its possible and quite easy to control the hyperspace world. This is because before they enter into the pure psychic world, their minds are already experiencing things that aren't part of a normal waking consciousness. Their minds are already open to the possibilities, allowing more control over the pure energy of hyperspace.

-Enlightenment-
DMT is enlightenment. Call it whatever you want but thats just what it is. You experience complete and total ego-loss, you cease to exist as the person you were. You die. And then are reborn as a person of higher awareness of self. This death and rebirth is a glimpse of what enlightenment is. After experiencing this for myself I started doing research on the biophsyiology of enlightenment and found that it could potentially be an offshoot of natural DMT release in the brain. An experiment was done with a device called the God-Helmet. This helmet, when worn, activated certain areas of the brain believed to be associated with spiritual connections by electron stimulation. The experiences reported by the users of the helmet are verbatim DMT experiences. And so I will leave you on this note. Should you experience DMT, your immediate goal for the present, is to get yourself to release DMT in your brain naturally. Break through to the world of higher consciousness without the use of exterior DMT, and it is my strong belief that you will attain enlightenment.

An old poem about enlightenment read:
The mind is a mirror, dust gathers on the mirror
Who cleans away the dust is enlightened.

When the enlightened master read this he laughed and said
There is no mind, there is no mirror
He who knows where the dust lands is enlightened...
เฅ
-121-
 

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endlessness
#2 Posted : 9/25/2010 9:19:16 PM

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1973tour wrote:
So, reading up on the effects of DMT on the human body in equilibrium yielded interesting results. The human body breaks down DMT to Melatonin to induce better sleep.

DMT is released naturally in the body during:
-Birth
-Dreams
-Tantric Orgasm
-Death
-Deja Vu


source for claims = ?
 
1973tour
#3 Posted : 9/25/2010 9:34:44 PM

Drew


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"DMT is naturally produced in small amounts in the brain and other tissues of humans and other mammals.[38] It may play a role in mediating the visual effects of natural dreaming, and also near-death experiences, religious visions and other mystical states." - Wikipedia

"It's called dimethyltryptamine. It's produced by your pineal gland. It's actually a gland [...] that's in the center of your brain. It's the craziest drug ever. It's the most potent psychedelic known to man. Literally. But the craziest thing [about it is that] it's natural, and your brain produces it every night as you sleep. You know, when you sleep, during the time you're in heavy R.E.M. sleep, and right before human death, your brain pumps out heavy doses of dimethyltryptamine. Nobody knows what sleep is all about. Nobody knows why dreaming is important. But dreaming is hugely important. If you don't dream, you'll go fucking crazy and you'll die. While you're dreaming, while you're in heavy R.E.M. sleep, you are going through a psychedelic trip. And very few people know about this. But it's been documented."
~Joe Rogan

I suggest you read 'DMT: The Spirit Molecule' by Rick Strassman. There is much evidence for & against the theory.

nobody truly knows, its just a thought
and also, thats why its a "theory"
เฅ
-121-
 
gibran2
#4 Posted : 9/25/2010 9:49:44 PM

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DMT allows us to become aware of our participation in the divine eternal mystery.

No need for equations, formulas, quantum mechanics, tachyons, theories of anything or theories of everything. Human beings have limited cognitive capacity - there are some things that are simply beyond our grasp and understanding.

Accept this.
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
camdemonium
#5 Posted : 9/25/2010 9:55:14 PM

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No offense but Joe Rogan isn't exactly a reputable source, but while Strassman's ideas are only a theory, i do feel he has unlocked a few of the mysteries of the spirit molecule. What disappointed me the most about his book, however, is he attempts to explain every aspect of the DMT experience with science, which is downright impossible, even though he seemed to have some background of the mystical experience through his buddhist training. The Spice is Life! and that's all that really matters in the long run Smile.
Om Mani Padme Hum



 
clouds
#6 Posted : 9/25/2010 10:58:23 PM

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gibran2 wrote:
DMT allows us to become aware of our participation in the divine eternal mystery.

No need for equations, formulas, quantum mechanics, tachyons, theories of anything or theories of everything. Human beings have limited cognitive capacity - there are some things that are simply beyond our grasp and understanding.

Accept this.


We do have limited cognitive capacity, but that doesn't mean that this whole visionary phenomena is ultimately beyond our understanding. If you want to give up, good for you. No need to tell people that you figured out that this is actually incomprehensible. Remember that people used to tell that Lightning was a divine phenomena and that its nature was incomprehensible... or why the moon was there... etc. Also, Divine is a subjective term.

I'm sure Jesus is a divine eternal mystery to some Christians and The Sun to the Aztecs and so on...

Remember that without specific receptors, DMT is bullshit.

Accept this... or don't.



on topic: I'm not impressed by the formulas.
 
nn-DMT
#7 Posted : 9/26/2010 1:43:25 AM

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gibran2 wrote:
DMT allows us to become aware of our participation in the divine eternal mystery.

No need for equations, formulas, quantum mechanics, tachyons, theories of anything or theories of everything. Human beings have limited cognitive capacity - there are some things that are simply beyond our grasp and understanding.

Accept this.


I totally agree with this. Couldn't have put it better myself. Humans are always trying to explain everything and seem to have such a difficult time accepting the unknown.
All post are made by SWIM. I am not SWIM.
 
clouds
#8 Posted : 9/26/2010 1:49:43 AM

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nn-DMT wrote:
Humans are always trying to explain everything and seem to have such a difficult time accepting the unknown.


Exactly. That is why you have internet. And DMT.
 
olympus mon
#9 Posted : 9/26/2010 2:53:12 AM

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thank you for writing this. it was captivating. although you thought it was confusing i thought it was the moist understandable explanation of these ideas and quantum mechanics. in all my books and science video's ive never had the 11 dimensions explained or even attempted to be explained. the fact that i could understand it is whats so surprising. ive spent so many nights hurting my brain trying to understand the tesseract and 4D that the thought of being able to comprehend 11 dimensions was un fathomable.

i enjoyed your theory of deja vu. in addition to your ideas i have felt that its also a temporary flash into another state or dimension in which the time space continuum needed for physical matter to exist isn't there. so everything is happening all at once so when you snap back into this dimension a millionth of a second later its now a memory because time has picked back up and it technically already happened.

not nearly as factual as yours but just a thought. anyways thanks again. i really enjoyed this read. great stuff!!!

got anymore...?
I am not gonna lie, shits gonna get weird!
Troubles Breaking Through? Click here.
The Art of Changa. making the perfect blend.
 
Skizm
#10 Posted : 9/26/2010 2:55:57 AM

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Strassman did not actually prove that the pineal floods the brain with DMT in response to certain events. He did find that the pineal contains and releases NN-DMT though. Unfortunately the brain gobbles that shit up quick. Does the brain need DMT to run? Is the brain defending itself from DMT? Who knows, we certainly do not.

The whole DMT being released while you dream is just a hypothesis (keyword being hypothesis, which is an unproven idea, it is not a theory. A theory is a hypothesis that happens...most of the time). Also, Joe Rogan isn't exactly a good source for peer-reviewed info either.

Now, after saying this I do have to say it was a great read. Although I think we romance the whole quantum physics thing. Sure, we will obtain higher levels of consciousness by taking massssive amounts of drugs but you will never be able to A) stay there or B) build technology powerful enough to take us there because we are always getting stoned and will never create the technology ourselves.

Well you might be able to stay there...but you'd have to create a machine that pumps you full of drugs, discards of your waste, and gives you nutrients. Wait a minute...I think I've read a book about that somewhere...

Anyway, as I said, great read. Question for you though, why stop at 11?
Life is a puzzle. Your parents fill in the edges and give you a starting point. The interesting thing about this puzzle is that one piece could fit in a million different spots and you will never fill it in. Try as you may, it will never be complete.

-Mi padre
 
gibran2
#11 Posted : 9/26/2010 3:19:20 AM

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clouds wrote:
We do have limited cognitive capacity, but that doesn't mean that this whole visionary phenomena is ultimately beyond our understanding. If you want to give up, good for you. No need to tell people that you figured out that this is actually incomprehensible. Remember that people used to tell that Lightning was a divine phenomena and that its nature was incomprehensible... or why the moon was there... etc. Also, Divine is a subjective term.

I'm sure Jesus is a divine eternal mystery to some Christians and The Sun to the Aztecs and so on...

Remember that without specific receptors, DMT is bullshit.

Accept this... or don't.



on topic: I'm not impressed by the formulas.

This โ€œwhole visionary phenomenaโ€ is currently beyond our understanding. Acknowledging ignorance is not giving up โ€“ itโ€™s the first step to increasing understanding. Itโ€™s a fact that we are a very long way from understanding even the most rudimentary aspects of the psychedelic experience. Something as basic as consciousness cannot be explained. (In fact, you canโ€™t even prove that anyone other than yourself has subjective conscious experience at all!)

To say that DMT attaches to particular receptors is to describe in the most naïve way possible the initial neurochemical interaction between brain and DMT. It doesnโ€™t even begin to explain what is going on.

Our limited cognitive capacity means that there are some things which will be forever beyond our grasp. Accept that! Whether or not the details of the psychedelic experience fall into that category is still open to debate.
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
WSaged
#12 Posted : 9/26/2010 3:47:48 AM

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olympus mon wrote:
in all my books and science video's ive never had the 11 dimensions explained or even attempted to be explained. the fact that i could understand it is whats so surprising. ive spent so many nights hurting my brain trying to understand the tesseract and 4D that the thought of being able to comprehend 11 dimensions was un fathomable.


Here it is in a (somewhat) easy to follow video!!
After the 5th-6th dimension I had to watch this a few times to continue following it, but this guy does a good job!!

eleventh dimensional theory_pt1

eleventh dimensional theory_pt2

I've posted those before a while ago, but they are always fascinating to watch!

Here is other great one in that guys series.

Time is a direction


Enjoy!
WS
All posts are fictional short stories depicting the adventures of WSaged!! None of these events have actually happened and any resemblance to any real persons or incidents is totally coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
clouds
#13 Posted : 9/26/2010 4:05:00 AM

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gibran2 wrote:
Our limited cognitive capacity means that there are some things which will be forever beyond our grasp. Accept that! Whether or not the details of the psychedelic experience fall into that category is still open to debate.


There may be things that will forever be beyond our grasp. But, right now, no one can know if someone, someday, will be able to explain consciousness, neurophysiology, psychedelic visions and/or other phenomena. It IS something that is occurring. It is something that can be experienced (its not some sort of philosophy, beliefs, etc). So it can be studied.

The things that happen to your perception when DMT molecules interact with certain receptors in your brain is not something "supernatural" or "mystical". It's not magic or anything like that. You are not casting "magical" spells or stuff like that. What is happening is that a natural substance is interacting with a natural receptor in a natural body.

This phenomena is part of what is possible to do. What is possible to experience... naturally.

It is more difficult and more "supernatural" to take humans to the moon than to ingest mushrooms or drink Ayahuasca.


What is so supernatural about a process that involves 100% natural products in a natural environment in a natural body?




The only thing that is means is that REALITY (this world, this cosmos, this body, this mind.... is awesome).


I don't think is necessary to go assuming that whatever appears to be alien and strange is divine and unexplainable.


Divine: Highly debatible

Eternal: Debatible

Mystery: Right now (25/09/2010) it IS a mystery. Consciousness is also a mystery today.
 
1973tour
#14 Posted : 9/26/2010 4:36:25 AM

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Like I said eariler, I don't base my ideas off of blind belief in something that is so called "unexplainable", I base my thoughts from my direct experience. I enjoy living in the mystery of uncertainty just as much as anyone (think of 2012 for example. Nobody knows wtf is going to happen, but we all have an idea), but too many coincidences lead me to feel differently towards the idea. DMT is released during dreaming, at least it has been in my experience. Dreams for me are just as ego-less as a hyperspace voyage, and allows my mind to open to seemingly unlikely possibilities. Before I journeyed with spice, I was having vivid Deja Vu experiences that I could clearly remember the point in which I saw the event first (if that makes any sense). Every single time I had Deja Vu I remembered a dream. My experiences with DMT have also left me feeling this way. Being in hyperspace feels like Deja Vu to me. The first time I went there, it felt like I'd always been there or at least been there before and I had just never known. It felt like home. It felt like the greatest Deja Vu experience I've ever had.

All the sources, like Joe Rogan and Rick Strassman for example, are all postulations. My Theory is merely playing out the possibilities. Nobody knows for sure, but hey, what if this is right? It's a big if but it's fun for me to think about. Im not trying to derive the fucking unified quantum field theory here, I'm just a stoner who likes to think about crazy shit! Very happy

To answer the question of why did I stop at 11? There have been quantum physics articles related to dimensions of existence that plot up to 22 or 23 dimensions. Others believe in up to 49 dimensions of existence (well actually only 7, but each of those 7 dimensions has it's own 7 sub-dimensions creating 49).
เฅ
-121-
 
camdemonium
#15 Posted : 9/26/2010 6:22:03 AM

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Gibran2 keep spitting it out i love what your mind has to say!
Om Mani Padme Hum



 
corridors of my cells
#16 Posted : 9/26/2010 12:39:46 PM

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gibran2 wrote:
DMT allows us to become aware of our participation in the divine eternal mystery.

No need for equations, formulas, quantum mechanics, tachyons, theories of anything or theories of everything. Human beings have limited cognitive capacity - there are some things that are simply beyond our grasp and understanding.

Accept this.


dude i wanna kiss ur hand Smile ... very very precise explanation.. i have noted this sentence down for further use.. u have given a perfect explanation.. thanks
 
gibran2
#17 Posted : 9/26/2010 3:39:29 PM

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@ candemonium, corridors of my cells: Thanks for your kind words. Smile

@ clouds: I notice that you brought up the term โ€œsupernaturalโ€ and in doing so imply that I consider DMT effects and experiences to be supernatural. I donโ€™t consider anything that I experience, while under the influence of DMT or at any other time, to be supernatural. I believe that the immaterial realm I often visit while under the influence of DMT is โ€œrealโ€ in the same way that our everyday experience is โ€œrealโ€, and I believe that it may someday be possible to explain scientifically how we are able to connect to these other realities. No magic, no religion needed.

Consciousness is something that ultimately lies outside the purview of science. There is not now, and will never be, a scientific explanation that is sufficient to prove (as I stated before) that anyone has subjective conscious experience. Although your subjective conscious experience is, in a sense, everything that you are and self-evident to you, it isnโ€™t possible to prove to another human being that you have subjective conscious experiences.

Unless there is a radical paradigm shift in science (which I believe is coming), an understanding of the psychedelic experience, consciousness, other โ€œrealitiesโ€, etc. cannot possibly take place.

Looking into the brain to find consciousness is akin to looking into the circuitry of a television to find television broadcasts. In either case, you wonโ€™t find what youโ€™re looking for because youโ€™re looking in the wrong place.
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
clouds
#18 Posted : 9/26/2010 5:52:57 PM

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Sure gibran2, I agree that visions may be "real" in the same way that our reality is "real". Mushrooms are just there in the ground. Plants are just there in the ground. A human comes to this planet and ingest them... well, that is something natural. It is as divine as the world itself. A substance that makes you perceive another spectrum of reality is something natural. And that other reality is also something natural.

Therefore the divine eternal mystery could be a characteristic of both the visionary realm and the material cosmic realm. Science is helping us understand the material cosmic realm, and could someday (I'm not going to say never) explain with evidence other realms of reality. We don't even know how many of them really exist. Maybe science needs to be re.invented or maybe not.

My point is that if people (scientists and non.scientists) are trying to explain and understand Nature (yes, visions are part of Nature), then they should keep on trying to search and understand them. A lot of them will be wrong, and a few will be right (like most scientific breakthroughs) but at some point those discoveries will be useful in the advancement of knowledge and technology.


Imagine someone telling someone several centuries ago:

"Oh, I wonder why does the apple fall to the ground."

"There are some things that will be forever beyond our grasp. Accept this."



We may know what is beyond our personal grasp... but we don't know if that is the case for everyone on this planet.

Your ignorance or fears are not equivalent to everyone else's.
 
gibran2
#19 Posted : 9/26/2010 6:16:12 PM

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clouds wrote:
...Therefore the divine eternal mystery could be a characteristic of both the visionary realm and the material cosmic realm. Science is helping us understand the material cosmic realm, and could someday (I'm not going to say never) explain with evidence other realms of reality. We don't even know how many of them really exist. Maybe science needs to be re.invented or maybe not.

My point is that if people (scientists and non.scientists) are trying to explain and understand Nature (yes, visions are part of Nature), then they should keep on trying to search and understand them. A lot of them will be wrong, and a few will be right (like most scientific breakthroughs) but at some point those discoveries will be useful in the advancement of knowledge and technology.


Imagine someone telling someone several centuries ago:

"Oh, I wonder why does the apple fall to the ground."

"There are some things that will be forever beyond our grasp. Accept this."



We may know what is beyond our personal grasp... but we don't know if that is the case for everyone on this planet.

Your ignorance or fears are not equivalent to everyone else's.

Yes โ€“ I agree. The โ€œdivine eternal mysteryโ€ is a characteristic of both the visionary realm and the material cosmic realm, although I donโ€™t separate the visionary realm from the material cosmic realm as you seem to.

"Oh, I wonder why does the apple fall to the ground." <-- Your response might be โ€œIt falls to the ground because it goes down instead of up - let's move on to the next problem.โ€ A true description, but not an explanation. It tells us nothing we donโ€™t already know. In the same way, to say that DMT attaches to receptors in the brain tells us nothing about what you call the โ€œvisionary realmโ€.

โ€œYour ignorance or fears are not equivalent to everyone elseโ€™s.โ€ <-- This is a true statement, but irrelevant. I havenโ€™t been discussing my ignorance or my fears, Iโ€™ve been discussing things that cannot ever be understood by any human being. You seem to not want to accept this as a possibility, but there are things that will remain forever a mystery. There are things that cannot even in theory be known. (Look up the โ€œhalting problemโ€ as an example.)
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
Skizm
#20 Posted : 9/26/2010 6:31:03 PM

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Quote:

@ clouds: I notice that you brought up the term โ€œsupernaturalโ€ and in doing so imply that I consider DMT effects and experiences to be supernatural. I donโ€™t consider anything that I experience, while under the influence of DMT or at any other time, to be supernatural. I believe that the immaterial realm I often visit while under the influence of DMT is โ€œrealโ€ in the same way that our everyday experience is โ€œrealโ€, and I believe that it may someday be possible to explain scientifically how we are able to connect to these other realities. No magic, no religion needed.


You're right at this point. I'm with you.

Quote:

Consciousness is something that ultimately lies outside the purview of science. There is not now, and will never be, a scientific explanation that is sufficient to prove (as I stated before) that anyone has subjective conscious experience. Although your subjective conscious experience is, in a sense, everything that you are and self-evident to you, it isnโ€™t possible to prove to another human being that you have subjective conscious experiences.


Yet here is where you lose me. A hypothesis is a guess based on observable and testable information. Once they test it enough and it occurs with a set consistency it becomes a theory. Yet, theories are never provable 100%, they are just laying the groundwork for the next big theory that will explain a natural phenomena more completely than the last theory. What you have right now, is a guess, and that is all it is. I mean, it IS possible that science will never explain consciousness. Yet at the same time, like clouds said; something is beyond our grasp until we spend enough time studying it.

At this moment we are taking the first steps in organic technology. We have created organic lung tissue, that is not accepted by the human body, is certainly accepted by cancer. How many hundreds/thousands of years before we seed a planet with life and study how it evolves? Consciousness is nothing but a complex serious of chemical reactions. That does not make it any less awesome though.

Quote:

Unless there is a radical paradigm shift in science (which I believe is coming), an understanding of the psychedelic experience, consciousness, other โ€œrealitiesโ€, etc. cannot possibly take place.


Wrong, we already study it. Science is about asking every single question, regardless of how inane, and studying it. Why would other universes/realities be off-limit from science? They ask the questions, but lack the technology/methods to study it. Give them time, we are very young in our evolutionary path.

Quote:

Looking into the brain to find consciousness is akin to looking into the circuitry of a television to find television broadcasts. In either case, you wonโ€™t find what youโ€™re looking for because youโ€™re looking in the wrong place.


See, the theme of this post is "We're ignorant, yet we will better ourselves and try to understand our environment" and despite allll the shit the human species does, we are reallllllly good at gathering information about our surroundings. We're cancer, we don't give a shit what it is we are eating, we're going to nomnom that shit until it is gone. Just give science time, these things are out of our reach now, but they will be explained in time.

You know, we may find out that we're all just tripping, and that is all there is to the experience Laughing
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

gibran2 wrote:
clouds wrote:
...Therefore the divine eternal mystery could be a characteristic of both the visionary realm and the material cosmic realm. Science is helping us understand the material cosmic realm, and could someday (I'm not going to say never) explain with evidence other realms of reality. We don't even know how many of them really exist. Maybe science needs to be re.invented or maybe not.

My point is that if people (scientists and non.scientists) are trying to explain and understand Nature (yes, visions are part of Nature), then they should keep on trying to search and understand them. A lot of them will be wrong, and a few will be right (like most scientific breakthroughs) but at some point those discoveries will be useful in the advancement of knowledge and technology.


Imagine someone telling someone several centuries ago:

"Oh, I wonder why does the apple fall to the ground."

"There are some things that will be forever beyond our grasp. Accept this."



We may know what is beyond our personal grasp... but we don't know if that is the case for everyone on this planet.

Your ignorance or fears are not equivalent to everyone else's.

Yes โ€“ I agree. The โ€œdivine eternal mysteryโ€ is a characteristic of both the visionary realm and the material cosmic realm, although I donโ€™t separate the visionary realm from the material cosmic realm as you seem to.

"Oh, I wonder why does the apple fall to the ground." <-- Your response might be โ€œIt falls to the ground because it goes down instead of up - let's move on to the next problem.โ€ A true description, but not an explanation. It tells us nothing we donโ€™t already know. In the same way, to say that DMT attaches to receptors in the brain tells us nothing about what you call the โ€œvisionary realmโ€. Then we discovered gravity

โ€œYour ignorance or fears are not equivalent to everyone elseโ€™s.โ€ <-- This is a true statement, but irrelevant. I havenโ€™t been discussing my ignorance or my fears, Iโ€™ve been discussing things that cannot ever be understood by any human being. You seem to not want to accept this as a possibility, but there are things that will remain forever a mystery. There are things that cannot even in theory be known. (Look up the โ€œhalting problemโ€ as an example.) You're taking your own guess here as a fact though. We may never understand it true but we also might understand it in 100 years. At this point, we just do not know, and that's okay to say...
Life is a puzzle. Your parents fill in the edges and give you a starting point. The interesting thing about this puzzle is that one piece could fit in a million different spots and you will never fill it in. Try as you may, it will never be complete.

-Mi padre
 
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