I really want to answer 69ron on that god thing, but some other time... I love how the level of dmt nexus posting is very high in general, much more so than other forums imo, with loads of intelligent, trippy but grounded people

as for RV.. I always think about these things: If its really true, then why doesnt someone go to these dudes who offer a million euros or something for anybody that can prove anything ´supernatural´, and then get the million euros and give to the poor, or start a RV school, or spread the knowledge, or whatever?

There are plenty of RV schools,infact the "original crew" banded off,away from the agency and offer their sevices knowledge and experience on the subject.The first "original school was psi tech and their still around.Some of the schools exploit the fact that you can profit from seeing the future (those are the one to stay away from).I've hear David Morehouse's school is suppose to be good but their all pretty pricey.If RV didnt exist why did the US govt spend millions of dollars developing this small group of psi spies and their operations.When the original psi spies decided they didnt want to work for the govt and wanted to teach the skill,thats when the govt made the announcement that the results of RV experiments were inconclusive and no longer pursue it as a source of intelligence.It took them over 10 yrs and millions of dollars to figure that out,please!I believe the govt still uses rv they just dnt want others to.If you want to learn some of the basics and not spend a lot of $,which i mentioned earlier is a book called master remote viewing by Sapphire.It is an extremely interesting link between dmt/RV/AP/LD, which is the pineal gland.Prject grillflame was the govt name for the psi spies.Some of the stories,especially from David Morehouse sound just like dmt journeys.

I think that there are other explanations for everything that seems to be supernatural, then supernatural powers. A great part of our communication is nonverbal, we pick up so much information, there's so much we see or hear without being fully aware of it. When we see someone doing something, mirror-neurons become active and part of our brain experiences it as if we are doing it ourselves. The brain is the most complex system known to man, in the entire universe.
But this doesn't rule out that there might be supernatural fenomena and that there might be a god.
But even then, i think that this god/supernatural would never be able to behave different from everything that we would be able to explain.
In the first place there is a logical reason for this: if the nature of god would be totally different from our worldly nature, it would be impossible for the two worlds to interact; if god would cause it to rain, then this rain would be a normal physical fenomenon and therefore the normal laws of physics would aply to it, making it impossible for it to have come from out of nowhere into existence, so the 'touch of god', his actions always would have to take place within the realm of the laws of physics.
Secondly, when you look at everything in the universe as we know it, on the tiniest levels it always seems to manifest itself either as a wave or a particle, energy or mass, a force or something for a force to act upon and the twofoldedness of this is part of a level of uncertainty. So it seems to me that what from our perspective seems to be the ultimate way in wich a force of energy can exist;life and counsciousness itself, must as part of this polarity, be connected, insepparable with the material universe.

At the same time, god would have some explanations to do on the morality of being totally absent when people suffer for no reason, if he could simply, just manifest hem/her/itself at any time.

Ron, i disagree with your anti-spiritual post. The only reason I come to psychedelics is for spirutality, I have never come closer to understanding even a basic concept of god or the totality of the universe than through psychedelics. I dont use dmt asa color television..... i I can just turne on my color television, thats why we have those.

Remote viewing as I've done further research, has basis in Kabbalah and Buddism, and in fact i have been speaking with religious people about the 'machine elves' and they have a basis in religion too.

You see guys, Ron69 especially, i think we are in grave danger if we, the few people who know about dmt and various unauthorized but powerful spiritual tools, choose to use them flippantly or without some sort of purpose to further understanding.

Look, without terrence mckenna many of us wouldn't be here today and would never have tried dmt.. shouldn't we be thankful for guys like him and strassman and shulgin and hoffman and i'm sure 20-40 more ...shouldnt at least some of us try to continue or expand upon their legacies?

And with science crossing religion in quantum physics, isn't that the direction to go since dmt also combines science and spirituality.

My guess is because once the people who experience it are not after money, also realize they'd be the target of too much ridicule.... so they teach it as a shaman or religious person does, free.

But in fact, there are people who teach remove viewing:
- there's a school in the us, thats where i first read abou it
- buddists, monks will teach to see without the eyes
- rabis or kabbalah leaders will teach to bring space to you rather than go to it

My feeling is it takes, like most spiritual quests including having to extract smokeable dmt or deal with the aryascaua stomach, a lot of effort and desire. Personally, I wouldn't spend more than 2 or 3 days tops to learn about seeing remotely, so I can understand where a school would flop pretty badly! I just think it's cool to explore and think about and try to experiment with for ourselves over time under our own conditions.

There are psychics who work for police and such, and although i don't believe in them much myself because i'm a skeptic for anything unrelated to drugs __ but apparently there are some police forces who depend on them for homocides to find bodies... remote viewing.

i agree w/ you completely flyboy but i think it might be worth the effort to learn.You just want to make sure you dont get caught up in one of those "spend four hundred dollars on our tapes and learn to profit from seeing the future".
To jump in to the world of the spirit molecule, i think RV,AP and LD are all closely related.

Still, if there can be a logical scientific explanation for all the fenomena seen as 'supernatural', and i think there is, then this would also be the most likely scenario. If we can explain the 'supernatural' by things we know the brain is capable of, then introducing extra entity's or dimensions is unnescecary and making things more complex.

Western science can theoretically explain how time travel is possibly but we still cant do it.

In essence, i do agree polytrip.

hyperspace,the realm of he spirit, other dimensions,other dimensional travel (via ,spice intake,AP,RV,LD or meditation),alien communication and much,much more,more than i can imagine of even imagining is probably all part of one infinite metaphysical phenomina.

All is one

Metaphysics,Quantum physics,chaos theory and string theory are all pointing in this direction and it's absolutely amazing but i dont think we have even begun to scrape the surface of being able to explain these things objectively, or even at all.

We can only wonder.

There's a book,that was written in the seventies by a physicist named Fritjof Capra called "The Tao Of Physics" and the book draws many parellels between modern physics and eastern mysticism.Highly recommended.

there is plenty of everything in this world, this still doesnt make it true



the government spent loads of money and time in MANY failed attempts.. Bay of pigs invasion, lsd as a brainwashing agent, etc etc.. they couldnt pull the acid brainwashing deal through, but they did test it and spend money and people and time on it.. just because the government investigated something doesnt mean it works



If pure RV really existed, then how comes whoever can do it doesnt win the lottery and give to the poor, predict something and go public about it to prove it exists, help starving people in africa, prevent suicide bombings, show the Randi foundation and get million bucks, etc etc?

Dont tell me ´because maybe they dont want to´.. Dont you think ANYBODY who could prove the whole western scientific paradigm is wrong would want to do it immediately, shut the fuck up out of everyone, expose all sorts of conspiracies, save the world from degradation and get loads of money on top of it all? of course anybody would..

if such things were not just ´bursts´ but actually reproducible phenomena, then it could really change the whole world.. but my guess is, at least at this point, IF it exist, it is neither really controllable and neither reproducible, at most some occasional somehow random events


I am an open minded person, I know science is limited and so on, but im not gonna go believing into anything that is ´alternative´ and then use layman´s quantum physics to prove it (im not dissing you, btw, just really exposing my feelings)

but I would love it if you could prove me wrong somehow (and I have 0 money to buy some book right now, so that cant be the way )

I cannot prove your wrong.

Do you believe Hyperspace is real? That we are actually being exposed to different dimensions and realities?
just a question.

Project grillflame and the rv unit went on a lot longer than the govt's testing of LSD as a truth syrum,which they quickly figured out wasnt gonna work.

If you had a learned psychic ability that could potentially threaten the govt. do you think there might be pressure on these individuals in the use of there skills?

Mabey they have realized,it's not their job to play god and interfere with the natural order of thing's but to use it as a spiritual tool,similar to meditation and DMT travel.

I'm sure there are skills that shamans have in entering the realm of the spirit with rules they must follow and not interfere with natural order nature.Just a guess.

Read up on the subject,if you have that strong of an opinion and decide for yourself,instead of contempt prior to investigation and forgive me if you already have read up on the topic and made a desicion based on historical events that did happen.It's not a secret that the u.s and russia employed these psychic abilities to gather intel.

Over 20 mil was spent on this groups research that lasted somewhere between 15 -20 yrs.

It was only after they decided to break away from the govt that the govt. started to discredit it's applicable use.

Read about project grillfalame,read alien agenda or psi spies and make a desicion for yourself ( when you do havt the $) or do some research on the web.

I believe in other life forms in the universe that are more aware of us than we are of them them.Can i prove it,absolutely not because i've never had an encounter w/ the exception of spice travel.

There are people out there that claim they have had experiences and even whistle blowers from inside the govt.

The human mind is so complex and we use only a very small fraction of it (less than 3%).

I dont just blindly believe what i read,hear and see.I have based my opinion on personal beliefs and have done some homwork.

If you choose not to believe thats cool w/me but if you have that strong of an opinion i would assume it is base on some of your own "looking into the topic".

Like polytrip has stated there can be a link between all supernatural phenonina and there are many forms of western science pointing in direction of many dimensions and drawing parrellels with mysticism.

At the end of the day, i really dont know shit but atleast i know that much. we can agree to disagree

as RAW said, "belief is the death of intelligence".. I mean, sure it is real in some sense, or else we wouldnt feel it, but is it ´real´ in the common use of the word? I dont know, im open to the possibility, and my subjective experience during it may seem like a ´hard as rock´ alternate dimension, but I dont want to assume too much. Regardless of it, its pretty impressive and shows that there´s a lot we need to learn about.



well if there was some pressure enough for them to fear going public about it, they wouldnt be teaching it in RV schools (and charging money, right? I would guess so), writting books about it, posting on the internet and so on.

So if they CAN go public about it, and it DOES work, then why dont they go the whole way?





no, we dont only use 10% or 3% of our brain, this is a myth.




so they can use it for their own interests, get some nice ´spiritual feelings´ and free dmt trips, teach it in schools, sell books, whatever, but they cant make even one single verifiable claim, which could save the world, expose loads of government shady deals, save starving children, prove the western rationalist scientific paradigm is flawed, diminish suffering, etc etc ?

Really, think about this.. This is where for me it fails. and if you have read so much about it, then you must have read some explanation for this, or was this never mentioned?



Im not saying it is completely impossible, that it for sure does not exist or anything like that.. Nobody is sure of anything... In fact, as I said, I would LOVE if someone came open about this and showed to the world it is possible.. but so far it just sounds too sketchy for me to devote my attention to it, buy books on it or so on... There are other things that call my attention first

but whatever floats your boat....

You might be right. Mabey all these remote viewers are just trying to exploit peoples desire for seeing the future or travlling through other dimensions and figure they can capitalize on it.

All i know is that the govt had the program for quite some time and spent big bucks on it.

Personally i'm not going to spend $700 to attend RV school but i do believe it is possible aswell as Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming and the most interesting thing about it,is that it is supposedly activated through the pineal gland.

Personally i try to practice meditation,which can achieve similar states (i dont practice as much as i should).

There are an infinite amount of possibilities in the universe,cosmos or whatever and we know very little.

I try not to speak in absolutes but rather try and keep an open mind but thats just me.

yeah sure, I think the same way.. Keeping an open mind, no absolutes.. I just felt I needed to play the skeptic here (but if you were a skeptic I might be the one playing the inverse role haha)

I know there´s loads we need to learn about the mind, the universe and existence.. I wonder what these next few years will bring to our understanding

The world needs skeptics or people who question what is considered to be an accepted truth.

I try and do it as much as i can but i must admit part of me gets pleasure from stirring the pot.

People have been talking about major shifts w/ our planet and th solar system along w/2012 and the sunspot cycles flipping its magnetic field,causing catastrophies on earth.It may be so.

I watched t.mckenna talking about 2012 and i dont know if it's gonna be the end of day's (people have been talking about the end of day's for a long,long time) but what he said did strike a chord within me.Which is the fear of letting go of all the things we've grown to love in our lives on earth.It will initially cause sadness,mabey panic but once you surrender and usually you surrender when you become exhausted from fighting,thats when enlightenment happens and i've even heard people call it god conscious.

mckenna was talking about it in the context of 2012 and the destruction of humanity but i related it to taking off on dmt.At first i was fearful as all i knew of reality was dissapearing very fast but once i let go,it became a beautiful experience and i felt that i had gone to the "next level" and i think when our physical bodies die our souls go on to the next level,depending on how you live your life now.

I Know i'm rambling but i do think humanity is in for a real surprise and whatever it is i'd like to think it could bring humanity as a whole together as one (brothers and sisters).

If it is the end of our human race than our souls will ascend to the next level, which is why its important to spread positive energy practice senseless acts of beauty and random acts of kindness.

Just to see how the brain is capable of doing 'impossible' things i would recommend to see derren brown on youtube. Just type his name and there'l be a dozen or more clips of him, reading people's minds. You'l be amazed. And this is all rationally explainable, no hocus pocus.

Gee Polytrip, I was just reading Ron's post here which was really very interesting but disturbing; I was wondering how I could somehow counter his dark vision. I have been to some scary places - but none that I took so seriously.

I'm so glad you reminded him that we are not powerless when confronted with *evil* and never have to relinquish when pressed. Evil is quite real, but it has no power if we don't cooperate with it.
&
Thanks for the reminder that only when motivated by love do our efforts stand a chance in hell of bearing good results.
Ron: There really is no reason to fear evil, that's a trap we don't ever have to fall into. It has no *power* over us without our cooperation! But to say evil does not require our attention, or that it does not exist would be naive & inaccurate.

I too have had OBE experiences (something like 7 maybe 8 times I remember vividly) that happened during wide-awake, sober states of mind, and after ingesting various substances or on the verge of sleep, and also when meditating.

These experiences are as close as I will ever get to being able to provide an empirical basis for a fundamental (and joyful) acceptance that there is definitely more to consciousness than happens in that 3 pounds of encapsulated gray flesh atop our shoulders.
OBEs are repeatable experiences, and countless others have had them too. (Too many to be ignored)I know that is not hard science, but it is very REAL to those it happens to.

I feel OBEs provide a hint that some kind of awareness that we can partake in (not me, "little i" but Self with a Capital I) might just go on forever.
Yep, for me these experiences provide a basis for belief in eternal life of sorts. I doubt there will ever be empirical evidence of this.(though it may be possible some day) In this case I don't need it.

After all, I have no memory of being born. Though Mom, Dad and all swear it happened.
OBE makes it much easier for me to believe in a continuum of consciousness (some call this Eternal Life) than it is for me to really believe in an ultimate end or death. Guess I don't really buy that there had to be a beginning, per se. So why need there be an end?

On the other hand, it is VERY easy to believe in the death if the individual ego, I have no problem with that at all.

Felixsmom,
is o.o.t.b different from obe? Or just another way of putting it?

Hello D - OOTB is eggsackly the same as OBE so I will use OBE with the hyperlink from now on, thx!