Which could be a subset in any of the options I listed.

Why is it supernatural, anyway? Do not know any of these 70,000 people? Why must you feel the need to stick such an overplayed and worn out word to this? What effect has it had with life on the earth? Did you convert to the catholic faith? Are you praying to the Virgin Mary daily now? You seem so convinced that something special happened. It's nothing special. It's an early 20th century stab at conversion to a faith based reality.



Some sort of weird thing? Right...


Probably about 0% probability.
Probably 100% probability that it's not a magic trick and merely one of the things I stated before.
Your Occam's Razor device is faulty, I believe.



You are using a straw man argument to try and validate your claims. Please stop. If you think you understand Quantum Physics or String Theory, let alone DMT, then I believe you are utterly mistaken and in for a big suprise.

Some comic relief on a pretty serious msg board.

Here is an excerpt from one of the links you provided above on "Mass Psychogenic Illness":

"Between the 15th and 19th centuries, instances of motor hysteria were common in nunneries. The young ladies that made up these convents were typically forced there by family. Once accepted, they took vows of chastity and poverty. Their lives were highly regimented and often marked by strict disciplinary action. The nuns would exhibit a variety of behaviors, usually attributed to demonic possession. They would often use crude language and exhibit suggestive behaviors. One convent's nuns would regularly mew like cats. Priests were often called in to exorcise demons."

Let's see...put a bucnh of young females full of raging hormones in a convent with no men around. No sex. No money. Lots of severe discipline.

Perhaps it should not be surpising that they swear and exhibit suggestive behaviour.

Instead of classifying this as "Mass Psychogenic Illness" I would be classify this as "What the hell did you expect?"

Check out The Devils of Loudoun by Aldous Huxley. Epic investigation into this topic and an amazing read.

"Why is it supernatural, anyway?"
Supernatural-of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
The Miracle of the Sun has not been explained by natural laws. I find your counterarguments unconvincing. Therefore, it fits in nicely with the definition. You can disagree but you really haven't explained well at all what really went down that day.




"Do not know any of these 70,000 people?"
No. I am not sure what that has to do with anything either. I have a friend who saw a ghost. Could he be lying? If I saw it myself, you could say I was lying or I had a hallucination. So the only thing which would seem to convince you is if something radical happened to you yourself.


"Why must you feel the need to stick such an overplayed and worn out word to this?"
As mentioned above, I feel the shoe fits.


"What effect has it had with life on the earth?"
Well if this indeed occurred, then it would suggest Jesus' teachings hold validity.

"Did you convert to the catholic faith?"
I am not into the organized religion thing. I don't like all the pediophile coverups and the Crusades. I also think the answer is within, not in a building with statues.

"Are you praying to the Virgin Mary daily now?"
No.

"You seem so convinced that something special happened. It's nothing special. It's an early 20th century stab at conversion to a faith based reality."
It would take a much more scientific explanation on your part that what you have proposed thus far to convince me that this is "nothing special". Many people have tried to scientifically explain this. I felt their responses were quite weak at best. Including yours in particular.


"You are using a straw man argument to try and validate your claims. Please stop. If you think you understand Quantum Physics or String Theory, let alone DMT, then I believe you are utterly mistaken and in for a big suprise"
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Of all accusations, it is most ironic that you use this term within the very same paragraph of which you utilize the device against me. You insinuate that I understand Quantum Physics or String Theory which is taking what I said considerably out of context. To say the least. What I actually said is that I have spent a lot of timre researching the Miracle of the Sun and it was my polite way of saying that your arguments were rather superficial and you needed to to some research.

You are mistaken. I in no way invoked a straw man. The structure of your argument runs in circles. You really believe that my exposure of your straw man is a straw man in and of itself?!
What I was imploring was your need to validate your claims with your own claim of knowledge and in due process, implying my ignorance of the subject.



Again, this is the straw man. Because I haven't "researched" this "supernatural" event makes me somehow unable to argue scientifically against your supposed impenetrable knowledge.



My scientific explanation was more than enough. You agreed with me and even said "...as I said, it probably wasn't THE SUN so it was some sort of weird thing."
So "some sort of weird thing" is your most scientific approach to something so -excuse my offensive behavior - meaningless?



Jesus' teachings already hold validity for a huge percentage of the earth's population. There is no need for you to search any deeper for confirmation. If you understood it, the Gospel of Thomas has showed you without a doubt that Jesus knew a psychedelic reality and was trying to tell everyone the "truth". He made it abundantly clear that he is/was no greater of a god that we ourselves. If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain (AKA you can a god). The kingdom of heaven is here and now. It's all in there.

I have already told you what needed to be said. This does not affect the physical realm and in no way gives structure to the allegory that is the Virgin Mary. You are searching for something that does not exist. You are in a rabbit hole of allegory, connecting things that needn't be connected. Your search will end in futility, you will pass through the chapel perilous, and start all over again if you did not understand it the first go around.
You seem obsessive with ascertaining the truth of scriptures and allegory, when you already know the truth. All you have is now, all you have is here.

A localized visual distortion on only a select amount of people is a silly concept. Why not give the whole population the same information? Why use so little of a higher power? Why only show yourself to a handful of people when the whole world needs to hear and most importantly understand the message?
When Jesus was on earth, why did God not tell him to inform the people of diseases and germs? Why oh why did Jesus come to an illiterate desert, when just a few hundred miles away China was a technological wonderland that could have been used for mass communication, of a sort?

To quote Judas' song "Superstar" in Jesus Christ Superstar:

You are turning my sttempts to solve a paranormal mystery in a JamesLove dicussion and a religious discussion.

Forget about me. Forget about Jesus.

Focus on the paranormal aspect. Pretend Jesus was not in the picture.

Let's say today three kids came out and say they are going to predict a big miracle on Oct 13 at high noon in a certain field.

70,000 people show up to see what the hype is all about and, against all odds, if something strange is going to happen.

At exacly Noon, what appears to be some sort of celestial body in the sky appears in back of everybody. It rotates, changes into magnificant rainbow colours and repeatedly careems towards the earth. Everybody screams and dives unto the ground. General panic and mayhem. This went on for 10 minutes. Farmers in adjacent fields saw it.

There was zero controversy amongst the 70,000 that something truly remarkable happened that day.

My question to you is what EXACTLY happened?

I'm just following your lead.
You decided this event is somehow linked with Jesus. I'm just following your ideas.

As for your last comment, I say this:

Forget about Jesus, Forget about the paranormal aspect.

Let's say today, some guy came out and said that he survived 3 days and nights inside of a whale's belly.
Thousands of people believe this and other equally ludicrous stories, to this day.

People are gullible. This we know. This "paranormal" event isn't even well documented. A bunch of people standing in a field and seeing the sun dance has no effect on anything.
The three children didn't even tell them what was going to happen. They just said "there will be a sign". People were looking for a sign.

Anyway, here is a good skeptoid article on the event: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

Essentially you are saying they were expecting a sign. Therefore they saw a sign.

You are not exactly presenting an overwhelmingly convincing case. Further details are needed.

As for the article you posted, I have read that before a few times before and I read it again now. The entire article is also very unconvincing to me from top to bottom in every paragraph. I feel that he has made his mind up and nothing will change it and he is throwing out very weak theories to support his case.

If you want to pick out any one part of the article to demonstrate your point, feel free.

Sounds like someone I know...
His theories are not weak and he actually cited things in his article, which you have not done once.
The burden of proof is not on me, as you seem to think. It is on you to prove something happened. You have not given any actual evidence other than "a bunch of people saw the sun dance".



Ok.. Here are some quotes from the article:



That alone should be enough to explain what is going on. This comes full circle back to ragabr's post.

And as for the credibility of the supposed prophet Lucia:



And here is the authors own conclusion, which you can do at home by yourself. VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE OF THE SUN DANCING. OH MY GOD. HE HAS RISEN. THE SUN DANCES.

With respect to contradictory accounts...as I am sure the majority of people in here know that when there is an accident and the police interrogate the witnesses, the accounts are almost always extremely varied. In fact, if the accounts are all the same, it is an old police trick that they know it is BS. The differing accounts were to the affect of "the sun was blue and orange" "the sun was spinning" "the sun was hurling towards the earth". Any story you pick, it still is bizarre. Something weird happened.

However, this was NOT a situation where half the people said nothing happened and the Catholics all said something did happen. The fact that such a bizarre event has so many different accounts does not diminish the strangeness of the event. In fact, this only heightens the mystery. It sounds to me like all hell was breaking loose and people were in a state of panic. Let's put it this way...if a crazy UFO came down on your small town...how similiar do you think the accounts would be as to what happened?
http://viscog.beckman.il...is.edu/flashmovie/15.php

With respect to ragabr's post...I assume you are trying to insinuate that the Catholic priest implemented the stories in people's mind. The problem with this is it was widely reported in the newspapers the next day, including some newspapers which were not pro-Catholic
http://www.godlikeproduc...forum1/message899340/pg1

As for the whole "3 Secrets of Fatima" thing...to tell you the truth, I never really got into that either. The Miracle of the Sun has been always the aspect that fascinated me. You really don't need Lucia to have any credibility. She made the prediction, a bunch of people came and something very strange happened. Also don't forget her releasing of her secrets have been manipulated by the Catholic Church so who knows went really went down?

As for your final paragraph...it would be interesting if you or anybody could replicate this event. Get 70,000 people on a farm, say "Hey look at the sun" and see what happens. If you would like to wager that you will get a similiar reaction, I can wire a large sum of money that you can match and put both in an escrow account that says you cannot replicate it.

Also...something was already happening when everybody turned around to look which kind of negates that theory.

"It resembled a disc of silver, and it was possible to stare at it without the least discomfort. It did not burn the eyes. It did not blind."

This is a valid point, but I think its use is erroneous. You say this is a supernatural event... a localized event that only a microdose of the population saw. Why would something of this nature have any form of contradiction to it? What would be the point? Why have this huge "sign" only for it to be different for so many different groups of people?
When you speak of police reports and their contradictions, it's usually of an event that actually occurred with a lot of information all at once being interpreted by the witness. They have to recall from memory if a person did action x before action y and if person x had blue eyes or green eyes, etc. Police reports are only a testament to the faulty nature of out memory.
Now I don't know about you but if I saw a silver disk spinning in the sky, I would remember that pretty well as would everyone else who saw it.
The idea behind pointing out the contradictions of what happened is that what supposedly happened is ONE THING. The sun danced. But yet, all these people had different experiences.
This is the same thing with DMT. Are we to really believe that DMT elves exist or are they constructs of our mind? The fallibility of language denies us the chance to compare closely the psychedelic experience, so we will never know. This is also true of "The Miracle of the Sun". We can jump back and forth arguing about what they saw but we have no clue and nor does anyone else. The main fact is it is meaningless to both you and I. It means nothing to our lives if this group of people saw anything. Unless you want to believe it and run down the religious path. Then, and only then does it matter. It is your choice. By all means, go ahead. But don't drag other people into your rabbit hole with your circular reasoning.




Yeah, you're right. Let's just throw out stuff that doesn't jive well with our side of the story.



The problem with this is it isn't the very early 20th century anymore. You know how George Orwell convinced a mass percentage of the population, via radio, that the earth was being overtaken by aliens? Do you think that could happen again today? No, because people are becoming smarter, technology is cheapening, and demand for verifiable evidence is at an all time high.

"Why would something of this nature have any form of contradiction to it?"
Because the witnesses are human which have different perceptions when viewing something. Even, and perhaps ESPECIALLY, a very strange event where panic and fear clouds emotions.

"The idea behind pointing out the contradictions of what happened is that what supposedly happened is ONE THING."
Who said it was one thing? There were a lot of different aspects to this spectacle. Silver disk. Sun, Spinning. Rotating around its axes. Hurling towards the earth. Heat. Colours.

"The main fact is it is meaningless to both you and I. It means nothing to our lives if this group of people saw anything. Unless you want to believe it and run down the religious path. Then, and only then does it matter. It is your choice. By all means, go ahead. But don't drag other people into your rabbit hole with your circular reasoning."
You seem unable to keep the discussion to possible scientific explanations for this phenomenon. One may speculate that your attempts at changing the focus on the discussion are because you are struggling to come up with a scientific explanation.

"The problem with this is it isn't the very early 20th century anymore. You know how George Orwell convinced a mass percentage of the population, via radio, that the earth was being overtaken by aliens? Do you think that could happen again today? No, because people are becoming smarter, technology is cheapening, and demand for verifiable evidence is at an all time high."
If I made a video of a UFO landing in a field, that could easily bet tossed aside by saying it was done by CGI or whatever. You had 70,000 people say they saw something which was predicted months in advance and was mentioned repeatedly in the newspapers beforehand.

Here is an account for the Phoenix Lights by the family who was the closest to the craft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaQBfgszbDU

and the governor of AZ who also saw it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLUAhVkGmj0

Woah... so a very strange event, where panic and fear cloud emotions might result in differing perceptions of it. Like, hyperspace?

You aren't grasping my point. You just reiterated what I said. If it was supernatural, there would be no reason for differing stories. You're practically saying that this was caused by something with a higher power, except the higher power did nothing to protect the humans from their own fallible perceptions. You're giving power to something and then taking away it's power all in the same sentence.



That's my point. It wasn't one thing. It was supposed to be one thing. Otherwise, how else would it be verifiable. So this infinite being decides to throw a small monkey wrench into this equation, just to fuck with everyone's sanity?
"No, it was a flying silver disc"
"No, it was a color wheel"
"No, is was a ball of heat"
"No, I'm blind!"
"I'm going crazy, guys."


My goodness, you got me worked up with this comment. I'm not keeping this discussion based in the scientific realm?!?
I am changing the focus because a well rounded perspective requires all angles be provisioned and you seem to keep wanting to reiterate the same circular reasoning that you first started with. You are refusing to accept any of my comments and only see your perspective as the correct and "scientific" one.
How, in any way, is your explanation scientific in ANY sense of the word?




So this is your "scientific" evidence for the Miracle of the Sun?
Some V shaped light emitting UFO?

Oh good glory, hallelujah. I've seen the light. The Miracle of the Sun is real and I will worship the Virgin Mary forever and ever, Amen brother Joesph Smith Allah Good Gaaad


Look: Reality is weirder than weird. There is some crazy shit that we can't explain as a whole. Our best bet is to research what is verifiable instead of focusing on a bunch of people in a field seeing the sun dance. When we are ABLE to address the shit we can't explain right now, we will. As for now, we are still clueless monkeys. Your connections and indelible need for this to be true is quite exhausting.

I will be so bold as to summarize your hypothesis (or my interpretation of such):

A bunch of people are in a field all reved up for some religious experience [Despite the fact that many are not religious but merely curious]. Anyway, some dude points and says "Look over there."

Everybody turns around and looks. They see...the sun (maybe)(?). They sit and stare at if for X amount of seconds/minutes (despite the fact all reports says the object was already doing its thing when everybody turned around). Because they are staring at it so intently, an optical illusion forms (despite the reports of saying it did not hurt the eyes). They all simultaneously freak out. For 10 minutes. After 10 minutes of freaking out, everybody calms down at the same time as the optical illusion wears off at the same time. Despite it raining all morning previously to this, everybody's clothes are dry despite being sop and wet 10 minutes ago.

If I am putting words into your mouth here, please give me the corrected version.

No, no. This is what YOU are saying.
I'm trying to tell you to be rational.

You brought this meaningless story to the conversation; using it to try and validate your claims of the supernatural Virgin Mary.

I'm trying to lead you in the non-religious direction. If you want to be religious, then do it. Stop arguing with me and go worship her/him/it. Or you can tell me what you really want to talk about, because you are clearly convinced that this event really happened and it means something vast in the scheme of things. You haven't made that last part really clear, though, as to how it effects anything except your personal choice; whether you should worship a higher deity or prey towards the Mecca.

Obviously you have no intention of coming up with a rational explanation on what exactly happened that fateful day.

You're right.
How could I be so shallow to think I could come up with a rational explanation to such a supernatural event?

It's my understanding that Jesus didn't want christianity to exist. He just wanted people to do more for others than themselves.

Truth can be aproached by all sides. It lies in everything. Jesus was such a smart man! I love the paintings they made him of him too because he is portraied as a drop-dead BEAUTIFUL man...and if he respresents TRUTH...how fitting, right? Truth is beautiful beyond words! When you feel love and feel truth it feels like being one with the universe! Its the best thing there is...

Jesus said "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."

PS: I am not religious and hate Christianity because it represents hate...Ideology and belief is the negative energy on earth, it is banal, dull, stupid, agressive, mindless, weak... keeping everyone distracted from seeing that this universe, this sky, this sea, this earth is heaven.

Yeah, this Earth is heaven to me!

Here are all his sayings, http://www.thepearl.org/Sayings_of_Jesus.htm

They are super smart, sort of like reading the best philosopher ever, even better than Socrates or Plato or Marcus Aurelius or Bertrand Rusell and Epicetus and Homer and Aristotle ("better" because he says it more simply, and he says it whilst repressenting himself as the "son of god" so he is basically enacting a life script with real life consequences...and everything he says and represents is TRUTH...I mean those saying of the link above they just blow my mind. They are so acurate. Does anyone agree?
...as you so correctly point out he mentions having god within as well as without. That is already a very smart thing to say and think, but the way he said it! He has such a beautiful language. I wonder if the translations are acurate...I beliebe he spoke Hebrew and some other language that was not Latin


Thats all I have to say about that! Peace and love!