In response to a trip report thread by shayku, i wrote this:

"You mention the notion of the profound sense that you will not return from the voyage... This is EXACTLY what prevents me from letting go, and EXACTLY what lets the terror raze my mind. I cannot let go and accept that i shall not return, as much as i am aware that it is necessary to progress - all such concepts are irrelevant when the maelstrom assaults the ego."

Gibran 2 suggested these ideas were deserving of a seperate thread, so here it is. My fear is that either i will not return from a trip if i fully let go, or, stranger still, that i will return as someone else, with a whole different set of memories and no recollection of my prior life - all that i love, all that i value gone forever, with no trace; i fear that i shall never have been...


I get the FEAR on DMT, salvia and to lesser degrees mushrooms and lsd, and a soft but present intimation of it on cannabis... Of course more often than not on DMT and salvia i actually get to the point where it is no longer a fear, but a seeming reality. Then in the absence of the fear is bottomless terror.

What fears do you have? Do you get the FEAR? Have you overcome it? HOW?!?!?!!

Does the mere flash of trip "images" instill the FEAR in your soul?

I have heard the advice - accept it, embrace it, face it and pass through - and i have responded:

Much simpler would be to embrace, accept and let pass through you the bat that smashes your face and shatters the skull...

IS DMT FEAR ITSELF?

JBArk

maybe try some kava kava before certain tripps? It can help with the anxiety a bit. BUT NEVER TAKE IT WITH MAOI.

As for the fear, I used to be afraid of the same thing on ayahuasca and sometimes salvia. My biggest fear was that I would come back from these tripps with zero sanity left.

It took me 20g of chaliponga, some various maois, and three tabs of weird lsd and a nightmarish near death experience to realize that there is a part of me that can never be broken, and will always remain the same, there is no use fighting the inevitable. Now I know, what ever happens, however deep I go, there is nothing I can do to change the situation, I must just accept it and continue to learn from the hallucinogens.

SWIM's first breakthrough on changa brought her into a headspace where her individual life force or soul split itself and traveled along lines of intimacy to all the beloveds in her life. From there it split again and traveled along even further lines of intimacy. At each division, it seemed like all of her history and impact within the world was getting erased, until she had no longer existed.

She has interpreted this as an indication that a portion of herself possesses a form of immortality, but that it does not reside within any of her attachments, which hold no meaning to it.

Every salvia breakthrough she has had, she becomes utterly aware that her old life is completely gone. She cannot remember anything from it, except that it had once been there, and she did something that made it go away. This new place she has come to is completely fucked in the head. There's nothing to do but resign oneself to this, the consequences of her(?) actions.

With DMT, she seems to think that progressively relaxing into that state of no-history has allowed a different form of self to awaken which maintains some sort of continuity beyond the attached ego. She doesn't want to speculate much on this, but does wonder, why hold onto the things that will go away for sure at death. At this point, she has let go of them completely several times, and they always return.

Sometimes she's suspicious of whether they've returned unchanged, though.

My salvia breakthroughs are similar, except I have such profound ego loss that I often don’t remember I had a prior existence at all. But this acts a soothing balm – there is no sadness or sense of loss because there is no memory of what was before “now”. This is why I’m never frightened by salvia trips. I’ve even had a few salvia experiences where I pleaded to stay! Without memories of my prior life, it was an easy request to make.

With DMT it’s very different. I rarely have ego loss (maybe because I pre-dose with harmalas? who knows), and when I do it’s rarely complete. My most intense experience ever (as genuine a near-death experience as I can imagine) left my ego perfectly intact, moreso than any other experience. As a result, I was fully aware of what I was leaving behind. There was no fear, no terror, just a profound sense of loss. The fear comes later – the next time I consider going back.

There is a part of me that believes this life is a dream – an illusion – and that when we die, we awaken from the dream. This part of me also believes that physical death isn’t the only way to awaken – I’ve been shown that DMT can also stir the dreamer to wakefulness. I imagine that to fully awaken in that realm will cause this realm, or at least my presence in it, to cease to exist. No going back once you’re fully awake, because there’s nothing to go back to. I understand that this is irrational and maybe even delusional, and I’m not even sure I believe it, but just the idea is enough to keep the FEAR alive.

Some of my most constructive experiences have happened after the FEAR. The most terrifying one I had was the first time I tried 4 mg of JWH-018. I actually believed that I was going to die. Yet, I faced that fear like an inevitability and as calmly as I could. Eventually after 30-45 minutes that feeling dissipated and I learned a lot about myself and how I react in extreme situations. In intense oral DMT experiences I find myself calling all my fears and let them devour me. This is the way I found I can learn the most from the expereince.

There are other fears, though, some which are of very difficult passage, and I cannot go through them with such calmness. 12 mg and above of 5-MeO-DMT have so far proven too difficult substances to even reconsider going there again...

This would probably make salvia much easier for her to approach. Her experiences, she realizes something is missing, and it seems like everything around her knows exactly what it is and has an interest in not helping her. Paranoia spirals upon itself.



This definitely harmonizes with SWIM's experience. The sense of selfness remains throughout the entire experience, even on hr deepest breakthroughs. The only aspect of this selfness that fades in and out appears as continuous attention. Sometimes she can hold her attention throughout the entire process, and other times it won't have a stability at all. This growing ability to hold continuous attention forms a key aspect of the... changes that appear to happen after willingly releasing the attachments or accoutrements of embodied self.

A strange thing she has observed, even as she can more and more willingly release them in hyperspace, when she returns it appears even more important to meaningfully engage them in life.


Very interesting.

I would suggest that your fear is self imposed.
you say things like "when the maelstrom assaults the ego." or "fear of the bottomless terror," or "the bat that smashes your face."
So I think that you are over thinking and verbally over exaggerating the experience and therefore building your own walls of fear.
All I can suggest is to be brave, realize that it's not something to fear so much, and go for it. You won't have any fun on a roller coaster either if you overanalyze the experience, so same thing.
and no, Dmt is not fear itself, fear is an emotion that you may be self generating due to anticipation of the roller coaster ride. Many of the other riders have a great time.

I assume you’re responding to jbark’s post in particular, but what you say can be applied to fear in general.

I agree that fear arises from within, and that DMT is not “fear itself”, but unless you’ve experienced certain aspects of what DMT has to offer, I don’t think you’d say that fear results from “over-thinking” or “over-exaggerating” the experience.

Comparing an intense existential crisis to a rollercoaster ride is not a reasonable comparison. Not every DMT experience is a rollercoaster ride. Not every DMT experience is fun. Sometimes fear is a natural and appropriate response. Facing the unknown can be very difficult sometimes, and it’s not unusual to feel fear during such times.

You say to be brave. And what does it mean to be brave? It doesn’t mean to downplay the fear or to deny the fear-inducing potential of an anticipated experience or to compare the fear of annihilation to a rollercoaster ride. To be brave is to face fear – to willingly enter into a fearful situation.

For a long time, I didn’t fully understand what all the fuss was about fear in anticipation of a DMT experience. Then I bought a GVG and learned a few things about fear!

---

Here are a few reasons why I now have some anticipatory fear:

>> On one occasion, I was crushed out of existence. Slowly, unrelentingly crushed – feeling my body and mind fade into nonexistence. No fun.

>> On another occasion, it was very clear that I had died. Not in a metaphoric sense, but that I had literally died and would not be coming back. I assumed I had a heart attack during my DMT experience. I thought I had accidentally killed myself with drugs. Not the best feeling.

>> More recently, I was shown how reality can be “deconstructed” by some entities who were very indifferent to the obvious horror I was experiencing as a result of seeing something I was unprepared to see. (Fortunately, I don’t remember exactly what I saw.) Not a rollercoaster ride by a long shot.

---

I don’t want to make it sound like DMT experiences are an unending horror show. The great majority of my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. But it only takes a few “special” experiences to change one’s relationship with DMT.

I have resolved myself that the box has been opened and now i must try and cope and integrate its contents with this reality that i presently reside.
Overall the good positive experiences outweigh the bad ones and my obsessive curiosity always seems to get the best of me.

Fear seems to be part of the deal. One thing that has helped me is that no matter how absolutely obliterated i've been I've always found my way back to this reality and been able to reground myself. Sometimes it takes some time. I always try to integrate the lessons as much as possible.

I believe that it cannot swallow us up into it. There is a sharp dividing line between this reality and that. We will always return as long as we are alive and breathing. I have had moments where i felt swallowed by it and fully consumed and splintered into the fabric of it.

It still stands as the single most terrifying moment of my life. The fear is justified by all of us that have been consumed by the abyss of hyperspace. I have high respect for this stuff and am super careful when, where and how i approach it now.

I have aborted journeys on many occasions because i was too terrified to continue. Even at the precipice of an imminent breakthrough realizing in the moment that there was no way i was prepared to handle it physically or mentally.

One practical way i've found is that i wait for the right moment in my life. A window of positive energy in myself. Then i proceed carefully testing the vibe and seeing if there is a welcoming feeling or not.

I believe the essence of the experience is our ability to deal with things fantastic and unimagineable .

Whats the first thing that happens when we are witness to something that defies all rational human thought and understanding.

become terrified of course. I know i do most of the time. The magic seems to happen when I keep my cool and ride that line like a wave keeping my fear to the side as best i can . Thats when the most amazing things become visible. I am always trying to get to that place. Its simply very hard to achieve.

There is another thing that I have tried. Instead of feeling like a victim of the experience at certain moments i have tried to turn the tables on the experience and attempted to become more of an active participant. Try to project out to it a sincere positive message or energy vibration. A simple intention perhaps. This can change things sometimes. Key word is: SINCERITY it can tell when you are full of shit. It has to be real!!

The real decisive moment is how we choose to handle the things we are shown.

I believe working on overcoming the fear is the biggest step to coming to grips with what hyperspace has to offer us.

I have seen enough to see that there are amazing things in there waiting to be discovered. I am trying to handle more and more of it as I continue this work.

Fear will be our biggest lesson.

I think this is one of the reasons why joebono had quit.

Having a direct experience of a greater reality, something that is beyond this earthly existence may very easily lead to alienation (it did in my life). If this world is an illusory matrix, created to provide a grow-room for our souls, then ignorance of a greater reality may be a necessary precondition of optimal growth. From this perspective, using psychedelics prematurely (if the rules of the game allow that - hopefully not, but who knows) may cause a dissipation of some drives in us which would be necessary to carry out the growth program. I sometimes feel that my psychedelic experiences gave me a great boost in one specific area, but this boost proved to be greatly detrimental to other parts of my psyche in the long run. I became so preoccupied with this particular aspect that all the other parts - which would make me a human being, if properly developed - slowly eroded into oblivion. I became sort of dead, soul-wise.

Later you provide the other part of this story:



This gives me hope.

About the FEAR:

I think about what the people in India are doing (if they still have this tradition): they spend the first 50-60 years of their life within everyday reality (growing a family and support it), then AFTER their part is done, they relinquish their worldly attachments and go to the forest or the mountain to meditate.

This way they make a bed for the ego-loss experience. I suppose this fear you are talking about would easily dissolve if your whole culture gave support to ego dissolution if done at the right time. The fear may be the result of trying to fly away while still having responsibility in the everyday world.

These are some great points, and they remind me of the traditional requirements to study Kabbalah; one must be over 30 years-old, one must be married, one must be a stable and upstanding member of the community...

I find the cultural support point very interesting, as it seems that many sadhus in India don't come back from their ego-dissolution, but that's okay because the culture makes room for it, allows people to wander around and makes sure their basic needs are taken care of, even giving them deep support as they transmit love into the community.

Edit: Personally, I think that this support structure allows for a relaxation into the ego-loss... like a trust fall... that most of us here at the Nexus don't have built into us at a very young age. So I don't think that we have to worry about it just happening.

I like and agree w/ a lot of what the poster has said.
I was constantly tormented by the fact that I wanted to smoke DMT and felt the call and wouldn't. I had done it several times in the past and everytime was either good or nothing so bad that I should tremble w/ fear and chicken out so often.
I came to my realization several weeks even before I finally started smoking again. ( mullein helped and meditation, now smoking regularly when the call is felt ).
The Realization is that DMT is like a diving board or roller coaster.
Right before you jump off that high dive the first time,for me anyway, is that fear. The IDK about this. YOu go anyway because you know you will be OK and you don't want to chicken out and make all the others have to back down the stairs, so you jump.
And it is such fun that you wonder what you were worried about and race back up that ladder and do it again. Now, next summer, you might feel that fear at first again!.
That is how DMT was/is for me. There was fear. Overcame it and and found it came back more than once. But am learning to recognize a true call from the DMT and when I answer it is always a well rewarded session. It is when I go offhand or randomly that I sometimes have mixed results. ANd as always, uncomfortable experiences often have things to teach as well. All experiences teach something I guess.

I can identify two distinct moments of Fear.

The first, I'm feeling right now. I feel like lighting up the pipe even though I thought I'd wait another week. I'm afraid of what will happen if I do. I've never had an awful experience, but somehow, I'm still scared. Every time I even consider launching off, I get scared, and yet my experiences have been glorious. I think it's the knowledge that hyperspace is so incredibly different from reality that I can't even truly imagine it. To go to what feels like a different plane of existence, one that is full of (projected?) alien conscience, to really go and experience it and feel it - how can it not send shivers down one's existential spine?

The other fear happens while in hyperspace. It's not the same kind of anxiety, it's closer to doubt. As parts of the self and the ego strip away, as I loose my connections to the real world and focus on hyperspace, this thing sometimes happens, not often, where something tugs at me, pulling me away from hyperspace. It's me, holding on to reality, while in a state too far removed to understand what the problem is. The act of trying to understand is tedious. Not painful, just difficult, complicated. But I can do it. And when I do, I end up slipping out of hyperspace, halfway, to a place where I can touch reality, literally and figuratively. Then, when I realize that my 'real' self is safe, I want to go back in, but it's too late, I've slipped out, now I can only look through the window.

I'm wondering if I really want to eliminate that fear. I mean, does it not represent my willingness to remain in this reality? Do I want to loose that? Not really. My last 'fear' episode was in the middle of blissful, timeless ego loss. I could have stayed there forever, I felt, in complete floating contentement, but I hesitated, and slowly fell back into my body. ( Jbark - I re-signed the contract ) I feel that my hesitation was somewhat based on fear, although an ultra-light version of it. And I do hope I can conquer it a bit more if the situation arrises. But I am troubled by this idea that the absence of fear leads to death. I'm trying to appreciate life! And death! I don't want to have to choose!