I would be interested to hear of what entheogen users think of meditation, specifically how far it can really get you into a different mindstate during meditation.

I've been going to lessons given by buddhist monks recently. I have experienced bliss, but I don't need to meditate to get that- I have that most of the time since my ayawaska/DMT work a year ago.

Is anyone able to describe the most interesting meditative mindstates they have experienced in comparison to entheogen experiences, to enable the rest of us to comprehend it better and decide how much time to devote to the practice?

Can there be visions, in which case what entheogen does their form most compare to? Can there be ego loss, dissolution of physical reality, etc?

Nope.

The possibility may be there. But if one approaches meditation with the attitude of trying to achieve psychedelic states (or any particular state for that matter), that won't be true meditation (as I understand the word).

In my opinion, meditation is about becoming aware of what is. If the ego wants amusement (psychedelic experiences for instance), then that desire should be regarded as just another element of what is. In meditation, all of these processes become objects: you become aware of them and then leave them as they are. (This process may lead to an expansion of the mind, because each time you realize that something you earlier identified with can be regarded as an object of awareness, the area of the "I" becomes smaller.)

For me, meditation (currently) is about working with the mud and garbage that tends to accumulate daily in my mind. It's a very simple process: there is the base - the breath, the body or the mantra -, then there are the distractions, then there is an awareness of the distractions and finally a return to the base. This cycle repeats over and over.

From my practice it seems that this process cleans the garbage somehow. If daily meditation becomes a habit, then the mind becomes lighter (there is less garbage). I don't know what it does in the long term - been doing it for 3 months -, I can only hypothesize.

"As the river enters into the ocean, so my heart touches Thee."

People tend to confuse two different activities when they speak of meditation, specifically concentration or jhana meditation and insight meditation. Check out Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha for an excellent description of both. Particularly Concentration vs. Insight and the descriptions of the concentration states that follow it.

During the peak of meditation practice, I had reliable access to the 6th jhana without any aids. I could also access up to the 8th while on LSD or IM-administered ketamine.

Learning to gain direct access to the fourth jhana doesn't take too much work, other than a regular practice and I would say the benefits far outweigh the costs. Also, the practice greatly reduced the dosages of psychedelics I would need to get to specific states and has helped very much with integration. In college I got very deeply into meditation, gave it up for a while, and then the mushrooms instructed me to take it up again.

Visions happen quite frequently in jhanas after you separate from the object of primary concentration. Not sure what entheogen I would compare them directly to though.

Replies already, thank you. Cellux- I agree there are practical benefits outside the experience. I've started using the techniques to quieten my mind if it's too active and keeping me up at night! Works as long as I'm actually tired, but not if I'm not.

Ragabr- could you try to describe meditation visions? I am guessing that they would compare to REM sleep or disassociatives/deliriants, assuming they're more mind's eye than hallucination? Or are they not actually visual, but a feeling, insight or 'spatial thought'? I'd love to hear an attempt to describe what the 6th jhana feels/looks/sounds like.

A friend of me told me that his father once managed to reach a mindstate through meditation, that had all the elements of a psychedelic mindstate. This was only after years of training though.

It may be possible. I find that a state of very deep meditation bears some resemblance with an MDMA experience, although it's more lucid and controlled and there's not a feeling of intoxication.

somewhat confirmed: practicing meditation (as a form of concentration, for me) helps me to get deeper on mushrooms

i just started taking a meditation class with a student of swami satchidananda. She seems to know her stuff, and i learned a lot already. Im like 20 days into a 40 day mantra meditation practice, and so far so good. I feel lighter after i meditate, like im less dense. Not sure about getting into a psychedelic mind-state, but who knows, it could take years of practice to get there.

Recently I have had amazing results working with energized meditations out of the book Undoing Yourself by Christopher Hyatt. Its alot better than just plain 'ol sitting meditation I used to do. I really feel undone upon completing a session that takes about an hour of time. My body sensitivity is amazing and the mind is ready for anything I will. The feeling afterward is up to par with lower dose LSD or DMT. Well worth the effort spent imo.

I tried using that book but got stuck because I found it difficult to concentrate on the "throat meditation" part for more than 10 minutes. A short attention span is frustrating.

I've also had good results with vipassana meditation (see www.dhamma.org). My goal and use for meditation is not towards specific, interesting, psychedelic experiences. Instead, I'm trying to get to a place of stillness, where I can be in the most intense outward settings and still feel calm inside. I have a bit of an Irish temper so this is difficult at times, but I've been encouraged to continue with a morning meditation practice. Again, as with the application of the psychedelic materials, meditation for me is a tool to allow me to function more efficiently and productively in the "real world".

If you would take a week of and spent it almost solely on meditating, i think you could get pretty far in reaching altered states of mind. Just a few days would probably be sufficient.

Yay! I thought I was the only hardcore dhamma fan here! Go MCTB!

But yeah, that stuff is definitely real. Just look in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and read about something called the Arising and Passing Away Event, or A&P Event. It's in the section on stages of insight. You can literally have effects as strong as a sub-blastoff DMT trip, or even stronger if you have strong concentration. If you have very powerful concentration abilities and you can attain really solid 4th jhana, and you start playing around with the siddhis (or "powers" as they're commonly called), then you can have some really crazy experiences.

And that's just Theravada Buddhist meditation! It would be really interesting to hear from people who have experience with Mahayana or Vajrayana meditation methods, or with some of the Hindu or Taoist styles of meditation. Anyone?

Seems to me, meditation is trippy in itself, but can be enhanced with traditional "door openers". Weed has been used in India, China, and the Middle East for something like 3000 years as part of the shaman's "bag of tricks", along with mushrooms and whatever other psychotropic substances were available.

I'm thinking the differences folks have in linking meditation and plant helpers comes from the different chakra levels people are on. Meditation involoves "opening up" these different "doors" in a person's spiritual "body". Think of us as energy layers akin to an onion..each with a different function. These bodies are linked at certain points called chakras, which, like the pistons, crank shaft and distributor in a car engine, can get off-kilter and need to be re-timed so they're all firing in the right order. To do this, you start with the lowest chakra, clean it up, move up to the next...until you've got them all doing their thing properly. If you don't do the chakra balancing act, you won't get the bus to the right destination.

I think this might be true, too, for minor plant helpers. A person with fine-tuned chakras doesn't need much of a boost to get off, while someone with clogged chakras might do a lot of any substance and not get off at all.

Of course, someone with total chakra alignment doesn't need help getting high....

On the subject of meditation while high, tantric meditation and cannibis comes to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjJcsvSEsA

i find myself at times in meditative states without even trying at times visions and lucid dreamlike states i think it happens when the left mind becomes still.......i haven't yet learned how to switch it on and off yet like a switch but sometimes it just becomes still and that's when i get quick glimpses of other realities......yet still the longest and most life altering experience thus far was with lsd back in the 70s.........ayahuasca i think is a great way to cleanse the mind body and soul and useful in meditative practice..........
meditation alone i get to distracted and my left mind seems to get in the way when i get in the zone my left brain does a wait what thing and takes me back to mundane whereas entheogens stops the wait what chatter of the left mind so i can explore my cosmic mind and rabbit hole without interuption from the left brain.........if that makes sense

ohayoco - I lost track of this thread, sorry!

The visions I've experienced during meditation compare closely with lucid dreams and also the waking dreams that smoking good marijuana after a hiatus will bring. Perhaps also the dreams that a nice Caapi brew, without the charge of DMT, bring.

The 6th jhana experience compares very closely in my mind with the white light peak of LSD. The sense of complete expansiveness with no sense of body or identity attachments. On the other hand, it has a very subtle expression, unlike the intensity of the white light flash, and any 'visual' experience comes more as a luminescence or soft glow... almost like the void blackness at the same time contains its own light. It doesn't have a unitive experience to it, like "we are all one," since there aren't any objects beyond awareness itself to be one with.

Meditation realigns my resonating frequency with the greater collective unconscious; my heart and mind open like a beautiful flower. While creating inner peace, meditation grows deep compassion within me. My spice experiences have reaffirmed my meditation practice, for me there is no greater combination for inner growth than journeying with entheogens and meditation. There is a stillness and clarity I have found in my mediation practice that is similar to my MDMA experiences...


Much Peace and Happiness

Thanks all, keep 'em coming

Ive recently started meditating, practicing concentration meditation twice a day. Ive experienced floaty feelings a long with a buzzing flow of energy throughout my body.

Does anyone who is experienced in meditation have any tips or practices for me that will help me in my quest to move up the scale of jhanas?

There comes a point where your concentration gets fairly regular, and you can reliably enter the first jhana, which it sounds like you have some experience of. You then shift the object of concentration to the qualities of the concentration itself. Reach for stable, reliable access, and then use the descriptions of the jhanas to help direct your attention to progress to the next one.

Developing stable access to each level really forms the bedrock, so it's not something to try to force.

alright thank you a lot. I already feel like im fairly stable in the first jhana. I can turn on my concentration and calm my mind at any point, nearly thinking in a fully subconscious way, if this counts as thinking