SWIM is brewing Ayahuasca from Caapi and P. Viridis. In the <3 Aya thread, there is a comment that these plants can be brewed together, however, SWIM is brewing them separately. I read on Erowid's vault, a recipe that recommends that when using P. Viridis to leave the washes in the fridge to settle overnight. This same technique is recommended for MHRB in the <3 Aya thread, but not for the P. Viridis. Should SWIM leave the P. Viridis washes to settle overnight?

Also, when readding water as it evaporates over the three hour washes, should one also add more vinegar?

P.S. Would one of the mods mind moving this to the Aya section where it might get more visibility from users that can help me?

You can perfectly brew caapi and chacruna together (this is not what you want if you use mimosa), that is how it is originally done by amazonian shamans.

However, most chacruna you can buy outside of Peru or Brazil seems to be very weak. So the only reason to brew them separately is to be able to better adjust the ratio in which you drink them if you don't know how potent your chacruna is.

Brewing ayahuasca is a time consuming and tricky process. Most people use vinegar to acidify. But SWIM likes tartaric acid very much. In SWIMs opinion it is easier to drink. And have you noticed: a lot of over-the-counter supplements use tartaric acid. Why is that? Probably bioavailability is really good. At least that is what SWIM thinks, in his opinion the tartrate brews are stronger than his brews where he used vinegar.

Why is that?

I have brewed tons of ayahuasca, both caapi and chaliponga and caapi and mimosa..I always use mimosa now and I always brew the 2 together..never seperate..and it always works out fine. You brew, jar it, decant after a day or so, thn reduce..its simple..

I also never use acids. I use pure spring water I collect and that seems to work fine. Amazonians dont use acids either.

Do not add more vinegar as it boils down, there is no need, and ideally you want all the vinegar boiled out at the end (something that I cant achieve..there is always some lingering vinegar taste it seems)..

I moved the topic for you.

@fractal enchantment: OK, you are right if you let it settle overnight and decant the liquid. However, most ayahuasca drinkers tell, that you also should drink the particles at the bottom and in case of mimosa that is what you want to get rid of, right?

About not using acids: I have thought about that a lot, also because amazonians don't do that. But I still think that homebrewers can at least improve extraction by adding a bit of acid, to get more alkaloids extracted. In amazonian brews they use far more plant material anyway and probably extraction efficiency is not so much an issue. Who really knows..

People say that you can boil out vinegar, but SWIM hasn't managed either. That is also why he preferes tartaric acid. The taste is so much lighter and you don't really have to use more than 500mg per liter.

They can be brewed together or separately, both will work fine.

As for the settling/decanting: Regardless of what 'ayahuasca drinkers' might do or not, the alkaloids are water soluble, they will be in the liquid fraction and not in the decanted solids, so there is really no need to drink the particles at the bottom. It wont hurt if you do, so if one wants to drink it, go ahead (it just might taste worse). There might be a bit water there at the bottom together with the solids which will be trapping some alkaloids, but if you decanted enough, the bottom layer will be very thin so it will actually have very very little alkaloids anyways.

And yeah, no need to use acid, the alkaloids in the plant are naturally in water soluble form.

By the way, spira, you say 'washes', does that mean you're not using heat? I think you should... boiling ayahuasca is fine, the aya alkaloids are heat-stable in solution, no need to worry

Thanks for the information. By washes I mean each of the three hour periods where the plant material is heated with, in SWIM's case, acidified water. If there is no need to use acid why do a lot of recipes call for it? Common misconception? And you also say boiling is fine? This is another one of those things I read SWIM should avoid when brewing. Would you mind clarifying this up?

Psychotria can be brewed separately or together. Brewing separately gives you the option of tweaking the dose with more accuracy (maybe a good idea, chacruna is powerful stuff!); AND, it gives you the option of drinking the admixture slightly later (waiting 20 minutes or so), after drinking the vine, something I find personally to be more efficient (gives the MAOI more time to kick in).

Boil for 3 hours, and make sure there is enough water in the pot to keep materials covered at all times. The stove and pot you're using can effect evap rates--how much evaporates is not important, as long as the materials are covered. Add 1tbsp vinegar per 1 liter of water: when I worked with vinegar, I would have some mixed up on the side and just top up the pot with acidified water as needed.

Happy brewing!

Yes, I think acid adding is a misconception in some cases, or otherwise it might be a guarantee of solution acidity in case your tap water has an abnormal high pH or something. Then again, if its not powdered product, strong acidic solution might help break up the bark/vine if doing long soaks or boils (mostly for extractions, because for brews, people add just a bit of acid, which I dont think it would make much of a difference in breaking up the vine)

It wont hurt to add acid but it might make the taste significantly worse. Personally I find it really unnecessary and never do it but do what you feel is the best.

In the amazon with indigenous cultures or in the religions such as santo daime, there is no acid added.

I have personally made brew with and without acid, and noticed no difference at all in potency (the one without acid had a much better taste), but I dont have an analytical equipment, which would be the only way to really prove one way or another.

As for the boiling, I think people talk about simmering or not boilign because they are either spreading rumours or simply because they are prudent and fear that it might destroy dmt but without any data to back it up. There is no evidence that dmt or harmalas degrade in boiling in acidic solution. The inverse, even, as there seems to be plenty of evidence they are very stable in boiling acqueous solutions (In the amazon ayahuasca is boiled for several hours or even days, and remains perfectly active. Also, DMT acetate or fumarate in solution are often boiled to reduce or heat-evaporated without any noticeable degradation)

Thanks endlessness, that makes a lot of sense. I always wondered how these people that post these recipes warn against not boiling the DMT and at the same time idolize the shamans of the Amazon. I always thought it would be very hard for indigenous shamans to keep their brews right under a boil for hours on. By the way, this information should be put into the Wiki or a Sticky, especially since our main sticky for ayahuasca has all of these misconceptions.

I posted there in the aya sticky asking ms minxx if she can maybe add a small disclaimer in the acid adding step.

One thing i remember which is important to mention about the boiling: While boiling, even strong boiling, doesnt seem to degrade the alkaloids in any way, it may alter the consistency and taste of the brew. Strong boiling will caramelize the sugars of the ayahuasca plants and burn small plant matter floating around, and this can make the brew with thick consistency, specially when reducing, which tastes quite nasty. Thats the main reason why its better to keep it at low boiling when making ayahuasca.

I use a water filter with a digital pH setting to get around the taste of adding acid (vinegar, lemon, etc.), now.

I am aware there are brewing techniques without acid. In my personal experience with brewing in the past, though, I have found adding acid makes a significantly stronger brew (tested multiple sessions with multiple brews). This could be a source water issue? So, the reason I mention this is to make sure people get the best results possible. (I can explain all of this in the thread if you like, endlessness? )

No doubt the taste of vinegar is disgusting. It's how I justified the purchase of said insane water filter. Really disgusting...

Just a thought: traditionally, places that don't acidify also cook with fresh vine. Being much softer, it seems like it might break down more easily? *?*

I also have extremely potent admixtures, even after rigorous boiling for 9 hours... the the harder the boil = the harder the taste.

minxx, its true in the amazon some of the caapi can be fresher, this might make a difference, but some caapi, specially sent for daime churches farther away from the amazon, might be shipped and stored for a while before being brewed. How long, compared to the ones from psychonauts buying from the net, though, I dont know.. I can ask some daime friends to see if they know.

In any case its interesting that in your experience the brews without acid have been weaker. I had never noticed that in my brews, whether it was with fresher caapi or older, but it wasnt really side-by-side and scientifically rigorous tests to know for sure. I wonder if other people have tried both ways to compare and give us more feedback. I think I might start a thread about this.

But yeah minxx I still think maybe adding a little note about this in the sticky aya thread might be a good idea

Maybe the thing with acidifying also is about bioavailability. There are reports that using phosphoric acid can create very strong ayahuasca. SWIM hasn't tried that but noticed differences in using vinegar and tartaric acid. The tartaric acid brew was stronger, using the same vine.

Maybe we have to look at the sort of salt. Maybe tartrates and phosphates are easier to absorb for the body? There must be a reason why so many supplements you can buy over-the-counter are tartrates.

again, more things we could definitely test. Ideally would be blind test, because I think expectations play a huge role with psychedelics. I have tried a couple of times dissolving dmt and harmalas in phosphoric acid and noticed no difference, but maybe my skeptical self prevented me from seeing the difference, or maybe the fact that it was pure alkaloids and not the full brew somehow makes it so that the acid doesnt affect much, or maybe its my personal metabolism, or who knows. Again, blind testing with a few people would be the ideal