AHA!!!!!!!!!

Recap on Minxx's recent insanity that she is still vaguely recovering from:

I was doing more research on the individual constituents in those CRAZY FREAKING SUPPLEMENTS that I took: the ingredients were wheatgrass, barley grass, and red clover. It was sold as a food source melatonin supplement, with homeopathic trace amounts of melatonin (0.3 micrograms). I've been eating a mostly fresh fruit diet RIFE with antioxidants and enzymes, and was apparently pretty MAOI saturated, taking ~5g of Caapi/day for roughly 12 days, before my mind exploded like a pinata.

I took one of these capsules before going to sleep and exploded immediately into intense hallucinations, and panic attack. After abour 2 hours, body load passed and I felt ****AMAZING****. I took 1/8 a capsule the second night, looking to ditch the body load and keep the melatonin goodness, but the opposite happened, I hallucinated for about SEVEN hours, and then drifted in and out of tripping for 72 hours.

Whole foods are superior to synthetics and extracts because (uh oh, Nexus! hehe), generally, the combination of phytochemicals in a plant food will synergize and create a better absorption that taking said isolated chemical itself. This has been tested in the case of melatonin. BARLEY GRASS, in addition to being the highest food source of melatonin also contains....

(suspense)

HORDENINE!!!!!!! AHHHHH!!!! It could have been the additional presence of HORDENINE that sent me spiraling off the deep end.

Can anyone tell me a little bit more about hordenine? It's a substrate of MAO-B, slightly stimulant, and proliferates in psychedelic cacti. But what else? Is it toxic? Is it toxic in combination with Aya? Does it make sense that this compound could have been involved with what I was experiencing? Does it metabolize into anything else? Can it be combined with melatonin?

Thank you!!!

Barley grass info


^^Interesting, considering the emotional catharsis I went through, too.

I don't believe that hordenine has any psychedelic effects.

I think that the unique experiences you've had recently could be atributed to the combination of caapi and your entire diet.

Fractal enchantment also reported a greater sensitivity to psychedelic's after having followed a simmilar diet as you have. And acolon_5 reported an increase in sensitivity for caapi after a consequent few days of using it.

Maybe it is the combination of consequent use of caapi and the intake of foods high in levels of some amino-acid's like tryptophan or tyrosine that lead to elevated levels of some neurotransmitters.

nonono hordenine I think DOES do something..ive hadsimilar reaction to phalaris extracts after all noticabkle tryptamine effects wore off..its freaking hrrid and hs kept me from furthr experiments until a better tek that removes the hordenine is found.

I was actaully going to mention this on that other thread minxx had becasue alot of grasses contain hordenine.

I had the worst dman body load, I felt anxious and jittery, overly stimulated and edgy..on the verge of panic for 2 hours or so after the tryptamine effects of the grass wore off every single time. It did not feel healthy. I even thought of getting some hordenine that body builders use to test it against the effects of the grass but I dont wish to even repeat hat experience.

Minxx sounds extremely experiened with caapi, much moreso than I am. caapi will increase sensitivity to others things when you diet it, especially when you are dieting with other foods as well..and there is alot of weird things in the grasses that might be active when dieting like this, that migh not be otherwise active, or active in the ammounts present.

I dont think hordenine is psychedelic, but its similar to mescaline and whatever was in the phalaris grass I have did feel empathic in some ways, but just way too stimulating and edgy on the body for me to get into at all.

Just to be sure, these effects wheren't caused by gramine? Many grasses have gramine in it. It's a tryptamine-like compound wich is poisonous. It may be potentiated by caapi.

Am I also understanding correctly that hordenine is n,n-dimethyl-tyramine? Would that have any bearing on the fact that... one should have no tyramine with MAOI?

Did some more research on barley grass, and there are all other kinds of compounds that allow a prolonged recycling of antioxidants in the brain (melatonin, pinoline), things that increase SAM-e, there's a ton of stuff going on, for sure.

I think I will stick to tart cherries for edible melatonin experiments--as far as I know, there is no hordenine in cherries.

Fractal, thank you, that does sound VERY MUCH like what I experienced. Hordenine is a stimulant, and I don't think any kind of stimulants are sitting well with me right now. I drank some mate last night and began to feel yucky.

As a future note, for the well-being of all, we should perhaps persue grasses with a wariness of these compounds in mind. Full-spectrum phlaris changa could be a bad idea. And accidentally ingesting something like this with 120g of Caapi could turn into a nightmare.

Yep, gramine and hordenine should both produce unpleasant effects like this. Im not sure how muchof a stimulant gramine is though..but I do know that hordenins is a known stimulant and it is found in the grass..i just dont know what the actaul effects are of gramine..most likely what i expereinces was a mix of these things, plus others present. I would feel the pleasant tryptamine effects first, but mld I never got the tryps isolated enough to really get a trip..but it was nice, very very faint visuals..then 10-15 minutes later these other real unpleasat effects would hit after the tryptamine effects wore off.

Am I the only one interested in finding out what it was that mixed the the ssri effects and caused the effects?
Maybe if you smoked syrian rue or something for a shorter ssri effect it would provide a shorter pleasant trip.

^Im not sure what you mean??...Also THH is an SSRI, and its found in caapi, not in rue. I dont think there are any SSRI effects from rue. Rue contains RIMA's.

I came across a crazy, fat-burning drink called Meltdown that contains Hordenine HCl....in the health food store of all places.

Check it out: http://www.healthsuperst...n-watermelon-24-pack.htm

Yeah, i believe bodybuilders use it to burn extra calories.

As far as I know *!*, there is no gramine in barley grass, but barley grass is known to be high in hordenine.

I'm still decompressing powerful lessons from that experience, but the physicality was too overwhelming to want to do it again. At least, with Aya, the purge is brutal, but then it's out and over.

Does anyone know how long hordenine can stay in the body? If it can be potentiated by MAOI? If there is anything in cacao that would exacerbate the body load?

Caapi + Cacao DO NOT do this alone. I've microdosed Caapi for a month at times, and it DOES NOT DO THIS by itself. The variables are melatonin and hordenine.

It's very interesting to me, too.

I stocked up on tart cherries that should be arriving in the mail soon, so I am going to run some self-experiments with food sources of melatonin and microdosing (I'll do what I did leading up to this past unintentional event and see what happens). There were two kinds of responses with the barley grass--the dreamy meditative blanket feeling with amazing afterglow, and the terrifying, I'm-all-alone panic effects with bodyload. It should be VERY INTERESTING to compare and contrast.

caapi and cacao is alright, its really nice actaully if you time it right..take the cacao well into the afterglow of the ayahuasca..and take like 1/4 what you usually take of cacao if that..dont do this if it's late and you want to sleep..you will feel like your on mescaline or MDMA or something stimulating..meaning no sleep.

Gramine has a high boiling point, so it can be easily separated from DMT by distillation. Alkaloid distillation is pretty easy to do.

You know the Volcano Vaporizer? That's a mini alkaloid distiller. You make something like that but larger. You get a big vapor bag, attach it to a flask, then you heat the extract in the beaker just hot enough to vaporize the DMT. The gramine will not vaporize at the temperature DMT vaporizes. Once all your extract is vaporized except the gramine, you then close the vapor bag tightly and let it cool down. Once cool, fill the vapor bag with a little IPA, shake around, then pour out the IPA and evaporate it. And then you have gramine free DMT. Pretty easy.

This also works for separating DMT from 5-MeO-DMT and DMT from bufotenine.

I've attached a pic of the digital Volcano Vaporizer. This one is great for doing small alkaloid distillations because of the accurate temperature adjustment it has. It's designed for herb pieces. The main problem with this type is finding a good container to put your extract in to prevent it from falling into the vaporizer.

You really need to put together your own system. A digital hotplate with a flask, and an attached vapor bag is better for large scale work. A few of SWIM's friend use this kind of setup.

the grass increased the amount of SAMe which slapped methyls on your melatonin forming dmt?

^^very interesting use of the volcano
maybe someday i will be able to justify the price
these really work well, a pleasant way to vaporize herbs.