That is fine ron, you do reserve the right to run away from the argument. No shame. I will respect that. I will also not comment on the characterisation of my post as bullshit.

I just want to ask you to be more careful with your claims in your future posts because more scrutiny may apply. As of now you have not come out as very trustworthy in some of your claims. Other than that, you should know that you are still a very valuable member here and you should try harder not to let your childish attitudes get over you that easily. I believe that everyone has problems of some sort and you may just not be in the mood for such arguments and/or some arguments might have just been too tough etc. but I also want to believe that people try their best not to bring reflections of their whatever problems from everyday life here on this forum.

You got it all wrong.

Why am I tired of this argument? SWIM has had quite a bit of 5-MeO-DMT obtained from chaliponga. He knows its 5-MeO-DMT. No amount of arguing is going to make SWIM's 5-MeO-DMT turn into some other compound magically. The 5-MeO-DMT SWIM extracted from his chaliponga is proof enough for SWIM. If you don't believe it, I DO NOT CARE ONE BIT. And I don't want to argue about it either. It is pointless. Why should I spend my time trying to convince you? WHY? You give me one good reason why I should care what you think and maybe, just maybe I'll continue this argument. But all I see is the same stuff rehashed over and over.

Maybe you feel somehow inferior because you're unable to extract 5-MeO-DMT while SWIM is, and this has got you all flared up? I don't know, and I don't care. Whatever the reason you keep wanting me to argue about this, it's got to stop. I'm tired of this argument. SWIM's chaliponga has 5-MeO-DMT in it, and no amount of arguing is going to change that. You don't have SWIM's chaliponga, so YOU DON'T KNOW.

My question was on how did SWIY separated it from dmt as you claim. This is what I would like to know in detail. Also, how did you separated it from dmt prior to the 10th of March 2010.

If you read my replies I did not say that SWIY's chaliponga does not have 5meo or that he did not extract it. The question was about how you separated it so that to estimate its content in chaliponga. In these questions you failed (or avoided?) to answer.

Infundibulum, did you ever examine SWIM's chaliponga?

Did you ever try SWIM's chaliponga?

Have you ever even seen SWIM's chaliponga?

The answer to those questions is: NO, NO, and NO.

So you have no idea what's in SWIM's chaliponga! Because you don't have it.

So how can this be argued?

If I say SWIM's chaliponga has 5-MeO-DMT in it, how can you say it doesn't? You don't even have a single leaf from SWIM's chaliponga to test.

This argument is pointless because of that. Can't you guys see that?

Dude, did you read my last post? What you write here is irrelevant to the discussion we have. I think you should take some rest and come back with a clearer head. You seem to be pretty tense for the moment.

Infundibulum, you're very carefully saying I'm lying without actually saying it up front. I'm not going to respond to that.


Besides that, this argument is totally pointless.

If batch A has 5-MeO-DMT in it and batch B doesn't, and guy 1 tests batch A and guy 2 tests batch B, they will both be arguing forever about how it does or doesn't contain 5-MeO-DMT.

It's a pointless argument. Unless guy 1 examines guy 2's batch, he'll never know guy 2 is being honest about his findings and may forever think guy 2 is full of shit.

That's why this argument is pointless. No one here has the exact same batch of chaliponga. No one.

This is the point that makes me tired of arguing about this.

My man, I simply asked you how you isolated 5meo from a 5meo/dmt mixture... How what you answer me replies to what I asked you? For the love of what is sacred, can you just not simply answer with details to how you separated 5meo from dmt?

I'm sorry Infundibulum, I'm so tired of talking about this. I don't want to bother to look at SWIM's notes concerning this subject. I'm sick of this subject. It's totally pointless.

check mate

I already answered that. I'm not saying it again. I'm tired of this argument. Read my posts why don't you!



HA! HA! HA! HA! As if!!!!! That's hilarious!!!!

I know how much you love to argue, but you didn't win any argument here.

Infundibulum, your remarks change nothing. You are still wrong and SWIM is still right. There is 5-MeO-DMT in his chaliponga.

You're pissed because you don't have the skill to extract 5-MeO-DMT from chaliponga and SWIM does.

If you want SWIM to give you a lesson on how to extract 5-MeO-DMT, SWIM charges $5000 for a full session.

Infundibulum, how much do you charge for lessons on how to be a jerk? Maybe I need a few lessons from the master himself?

Ron, I know this part.

But how about the step in bold? how did SWIY end up with a 5meo/dmt mixture in the first place to separate? I presume it was an A/B on Chaliponga, with citric acid at pH of 4? And DCM defatting, no? And then base with sodium carbonate at pH ~9 and pull with DCM?

And then what? evaporate the dcm and call it 5meo/dmt mixture? Or there were other steps involved. This is what I am interested in. Your answer of "I already answered that. I'm not saying it again. I'm tired of this argument. Read my posts why don't you! does not address these.



Dude, cmon, this is pathetic. And why do you keep thinking all around your posts that I don't believe you can extract 5meo? It is the isolation from chaliponga I am actually trying to ask you. And if I call you a liar or whatever then you can easily shut me up by answering the questions and by maintaining your dignity. But instead of doing that you prefer to start jumping up and down and yelling like a toddler who didn't get the toy or the attention he wanted.

I know you may be tired of the argument but trying all the time to slip out of it with such behaviour does not make a good impression. If you are tired of the argument you can shut me up in a single post by answering some questions. But instead you decided to make many more posts trying to just avoid arguing.

Infundibulum, maybe in a week when I'm not so sick to death of this subject I'll come back and answer these questions. Right now, I don't even want to think about it. What's in my mind is this, "These guys don't believe a word I'm saying. So FUCK IT. Why bother."

That's how I feel right now. Maybe in a week I'll be able to approach this subject seriously again. But right now I see basically two people who really care about this subject, way more than I do, who want so badly for there to be no 5-MeO-DMT in chaliponga, for the sake of argument only. I don't see the point in that.

I don't care if there is or isn't 5-MeO-DMT in chaliponga. Why should I care about that? I'm not a vendor trying to say "HERE. BUY MY CHALIPONGA! IT'S LOADED WITH 5-MEO-DMT!"

If I was trying to sell you guys on the idea that there was 5-MeO-DMT in chaliponga so you'd buy my leaves, then I could see the skepticism, but I'm not trying to sell you guys crap. I don't care if you guys don't believe there is 5-MeO-DMT in anything at all. I totally don't care.

It's funny that I get the impression that you guys think I'm trying to push this idea on you. Why would I bother trying to convince anyone in the world that SWIM's chaliponga has 5-MeO-DMT in it? What's the purpose of that? Especially if it wasn't there. Why would a person do that? I don't get it. And trying to argue it just seems so pointless. This whole thread is all about belief and nothing more. You either believe the studies that find 5-MeO-DMT in chaliponga or you don't. There's nothing else to it. You can't sample SWIM's chaliponga through forum text. SWIM can't sample yours to test it either. All we can do is argue, and nothing more. It's so damn pointless.

Anyway, I had enough of this for a while. Maybe in a week I'll not be so sick to death of this subject and be able to approach it with a more positive outlook.

At this point, all I can see that's important is for people to post papers by known scientists studying this subject. Look at the numbers. And that's about it. Getting into this "HE SAID SHE SAID" stuff is stupid.

The tests SWIM did are his own personal tests. They are not published tests, and so people have no way of knowing the validity of those tests. All I can say is that SWIM's tests are reliable. You either believe it or you don't. That's the problem with this whole subject.

If we just post numbers recorded by known scientists and field researchers, that to me is worth while, at least to some extent.

Posting our own studies leads to disbelief when the numbers don't match what others believe should be true. So it's of little use and just leads to arguments.

Cool may, we'll just have to wait then.

But bear in mind, as I many times wrote, that I did not question thus far whether SWIY's chaliponga has 5meo or not. Seriously. When you'll have a clearer head and wish to answer and also go back to this dialogue, note the point where I chimed in and what I asked you.

Please make an effort to notice that my concern was on how (i.e. a rough step-by-step procedure) of how you isolated 5meo from the chaliponga alkaloidal mixture. I trust that you will clearly understand what I am asking here and I hope that you will NOT keep on posting that

1. we don't believe that SWIY chaliponga has 5meo; we'll neve rbe able to check anyway as you've alrady said

2. Neither I or SWIM envy SWIY for not being able to extract 5meo. This is, with all due honestly not the main concern in my or SWIM's life.

3. other people's posts are crap or bullshit.

And finally I hope that you understand that if you've been called a liar then the best way is to prove me wrong. You know I have totally no problem realising my mistakes and misjudgements, and I quickly apologise should I have done wrong. But for the moment you have not been clear enough (on the contrary, you've been keeping a more escapist of the issue) so my doubt about SWIY's 5meo isolation (= somewhat different from extraction I hope you understand, no?) procedure from chaliponga remains.

This thread has become a bit awkward.

Anyway.... In my experience there definateky was SOMETHING in all the chaliponga that i've ever used (always ordered it from maya) that made it very different from chacruna. I can even feel the difference if in ayahuasca made with chacruna, 2 grams of chaliponga is added.

This is not auto-suggestion, the effects of it are too strong.

I don't know what the compound is, but i believe that it is safe as long as not too much of it is taken.

-It differs from chacruna in that it has very few visual effects if taken without chacruna and it reduces the visual effects of chacruna when taken with it.
-It creates a strong sense of total alienation. It feels as if everything in this world has suddenly become very different, but you're just not able to tell what exactly; as if someone has built a perfect replica of this world and placed you in it without telling you; you can see that it's not the same world anymore, but you just can't get your finger behind it what's so different about it.
-It creates visions that are a bit like in that famous 'blueberry' clip: they're totally unlike visions from other psychedelic's in that they're dark and pale. They seem to be almost void of colours, but they feel extremely real and very tangible.

This pretty much seems to fit the descriptions i've heard so far of 5-MeO-DMT experiences. On the other hand there may be something in it that's not 5-MeO-DMT, that just has simmilar effects.

I've heard that there are beta-carbolines present in chaliponga. Maybe something like 5-MeO-tryptoline or a simmilar compound would have enough structural simmilarities with 5-MeO-DMT to trigger many of the same receptors, thus leading to an experience that has much in common with 5-MeO-DMT.

I don't know these things since i'm no chemist, but there's most definately SOMETHING in chaliponga that's very different from normal DMT, that's able to cause very, very strong experiences with very strong psychological effects and almost colourless visions.

Whatever the substance is, it doesn't seem to be a very dangerous drug, but it is absolutely a substance that in my view deserves a greater respect even, than DMT, since it is extremely intense and not something to be joking with.

^^Agree completely with the above statement. There is SOMETHING in Chaliponga, at least a batch from a well known Dutch ethnobotancical vendor I have experienced...and I agree with polytrip it definitely ain't auto-suggestion!!

Also, just wanting to add my 2 cents, I have experienced both this Chaliponga, and a large dose of smoked 5-Meo-DMT, and both experiences had some very similar and unmistakable parallels...

Also, people should take studies quoting quantities of alkaloids in plants with a little pinch of salt. Plants can vary WIDELY in quantities and proportions of alkaloids, with things like genetics, environmental conditions, time of year and even time of day all having a possible influence on these...rarely are alkaloid levels consistent in plants in natural conditions.

It might be another similar, mystery alkaloid, or a few...I believe though that the combination of MAOI and DMT could possibly make even trace amounts of 5-Meo-DMT more active than they otherwise should be...we all know that the influence of caapi as an MAOI is profound, but remember also that DMT in enhanced herb mixtures seems to also heighten the essence of the particular herb or herbs in question. Perhaps the combination of both MAOI and DMT is a very powerful booster of trace quantities of alkaloids.

Alright all of you skeptics out there, here you go, PROOF that there is 5-MeO-DMT in this plant.

The following researchers published finding 5-MeO-DMT in Diplopterys cabrerana:

5-MeO-DMT, DMT - Gates
5-MeO-DMT, DMT, Bufotenine - C. Raetsch 2005
5-MeO-DMT, DMT, Bufotenine, NMT, N-Methyltetrahydro-b-carbonline - Argurell et al. 1968
5-MeO-DMT, DMT, N-Methyltetrahydro-b-carbonline - Pinkley 1973

It's there. There is no question about that.

For those of you who want to argue and doubt SWIM is finding 5-MeO-DMT in his chaliponga, take a look at those others who found it. It is there for sure.

If you can't find it, either your chaliponga is too old, bad qualtiy, misidentified, or was somehow treated in such a way that the 5-MeO-DMT was destroyed, or your extraction tech doesn't work for 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM has always been able to find it unless the leaf was very old. He's had misidentified chaliponga a few times which was actually chacruna. There's also some fake chaliponga that sort of looks like it. The leaves are not exactly the same, but vendors still sell it as chaliponga. That kind had no 5-MeO-DMT in it, but has DMT.



If those other guys can find it and SWIM can, then you can too.

The following WILL extract 5-MeO-DMT from chaliponga for SURE, guaranteed:

* boil the leaf in water and bring the pH to 4 using citric acid.
* filter out the leaf.
* defat 10 times with DCM.
* bring the pH to 9 with sodium carbonate.
* extract with DCM 5 times.
* evaporate to get a greensish residue containing mostly DMT and some 5-MeO-DMT. The ratio of DMT to 5-MeO-DMT will vary.

Here's what NOT to do:

* Don't use a base other than sodium carbonate.
* Don't use a solvent other than DCM.
* Don't use heat to evaporate the DCM at the end.
* Don't use any acid other than citric acid.
* Don't use old chaliponga (it will have almost no 5-MeO-DMT).

Try it sublingually at 10 mg. It will give you a mild 5-MeO-DMT trip if you have decent chaliponga. If not, your chaliponga is crap. Find another vendor.

would you mind giving the full source please, im having a very hard time locating any of the above without knowing the publication, full author name or something more specific.

I have raetsch's encyclopedia and he doesnt mention the quantity of 5-meo-dmt. He also cites this pinkley 1973 on his claim of diplopterys 5-meo-dmt, but first of all the full name is not in the bibliography of the book so I have very hard time finding what publication it is, and secondly, he never mentions the quantity. In fact from the write up it seems to imply its only traces... I never said there was no 'traces' of 5-meo-dmt, I asked from the beginning about 'significant quantities', so I would love if you could come up with the full name of those sources so we can check the methods as well as any quantitative data

by the way, I hope you understand that being skeptic about someone's claims on the internet about a certain alkaloid content in a plant is not the same as saying the alkaloid is not there!

Hi 69ron



Now we might be getting somewhere, when at least you try to present verifiable sources. This a good step towards a nice rational argument!

However I ask you to clarify your sources. You obviously got your data form Ratsch who is not a biochemist nor ever done any lab work. He did an amzing job collecting other people's references, though. So your mention of Ratsch 2005 is basically void of new content.

The Gates source is difficult to verify as you did not even present a publishing year. However I just tracked tha that it is possibly :

Gates, Bronwen (1982) "Banisteriopsis, Diplopterys (Malpighiaceae)." Flora Neotropica Monographs. Number 30. The New York Botanical Garden. ISBN 0-89327-238-8

[you have been checking the erowid link I provided in a previous post! Great!

The Argurell 1973 is probably a misprint or misquote. The sole reference I could find to that work is

Argurell, S., et al. 1973. Quantitation of THC in Plasma from Cannabis Smokers. J. Pharmaceut. Pharmacol. 25:554-558.

For which I could not track an online version, but I think it is quite far fetched for such a title to find any reference to chaliponga alkaloids

According to the same erowid page by the Keepers of the Trout, it is probably this that you are refering

Agurell, S. et al. (1968 ) American Journal of Pharmacy 140: 148-151. "Alkaloid Content of Banisteriopsis Rusbyana." [Stig Agurell, Bo Holmstedt & Jan-Erik Lindgren]

This author found only traces of MMT, Bufotenine beta-carbolines and 5-MeO-DMT in the leaves. This proves that if 5-Meo-DMT is there it can be detected and measured, even in minuscule amounts


The Pinkley 1973 is quoted by Ratsch (as I mentioned previously) However, Ratsch did not provide a reference title, which I presume is this: http://en.scientificcommons.org/6088712 This one I do not have access to it and simply cannot check it. However, even Ratsch is pretty specific mentioning that this study found traces of 5-Meo-DMT in the stems

So, your list basicalyy boils down to nothing.

Listen ron, I'm not on personal crusade against you or your ideas. I'm a scientist (really!).In my line of work, for any assertion to be made it must be verifiable - that's the whole basis of science! If you can provide a verifiable source of 5-MeO-DMT in chaliponga or make a full test publishing here your results that would be great and everyone would benefit. Unfortunately someone must provide a positive proof. It is not possible to prove a negative, this means that no one can prove that there is no 5-MeO-DMT in Chaliponga! However we can prove at least in some batches, this alkaloid is present. It just takes one essay to prove that! So it's in your hands!

My own bioassays with chaliponga were similar to the described above in this thread, so I would not rule out definitely that there is no 5-MeO-DMT in the plant, but my scientific mind doubts my subjective impressions and requires a more formal proof, for which so far we have none.

Question is then: wich other substances could be responsible for the effct. If you have doubts as a scientist, then logically you must consider there are other possibility's.

Auto suggestion is out of the question: if people could auto suggest themselves even halfway there, darwin would already have to write us off: can you imagine anyone catching a mammoth who just auto-suggested himself into that total strangeness?

I dont by the auto suggestion thing...I mean come on, talk about frantically grasping in the dark..makes a hell of alot more sense that there is something else in chaliponga.