There's a lot of talk on this forum about DMT helping people overcome fear(s), and curiously and paradoxically even more talk about pre-flight anxiety, and about learning from particularly challenging and terrifying trips.

I submit that perhaps we seek out horror as a replacement for the fear our ancestors knew in hunting gathering/warring communities. And that we seek out horror through DMT, perhaps subconsciously. Not the adrenaline thrill that results from a little scare or startle, but the profound horror that resides in the concept of our own mortality.

In the world I live in, and I assume (perhaps incorrectly), the world you live in, I am NEVER confronted with direct threats to my existence, or our families' existence. The last few hundred years (at least in developed countries and with a few exceptions - violent crime, various wars) we have had the luxury of not needing to employ the fight/flight mechanism, and the greatest fear most of us may have known is probably the school yard bully.

Except maybe in dreams. The strangest thing is, I never have nightmares. I rarely dream. About 3 times a year at most. And before anyone pipes in with the current theory that correlates REM sleep with dreams and insists that I dream and simply don't remember them, bear in mind that it is a CORRELATION, not a cause, that has been determined.

(sidebar: i have always wondered if what we call a "dream" exists without a structured narrative, and that maybe this narrative is imposed on the dreaming state as we remember it, or consolidate it upon waking; bit of a chicken and egg question, but interesting nevertheless...)

I am a filmmaker. I am attracted to dark subjects. I don't scare in horror movies, or by other means that seems to spook most anyone else. Maybe all of these things, for others, are ways of achieving the deep seated terror i am proposing is not only healthy, but perhaps biologically necessary as a survival impulse and an adaptive strategy.

I have said before that i make films because I don't dream. I make films with dark subject matter perhaps because I don't have nightmares. And i believe I am drawn to psychedelics, among other reasons, because there is always the lurking possibility of being horrified to my very existential core. They are ontological tools, and when it comes down to it, the most frightening of all scenarios to entertain is that WE DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST.

So for me at least, as much as i hate the terror and angst and horror, I think I need it. And perhaps I use DMT and other substances not to OVERCOME these sensations, but rather, paradoxically, to INDULGE in them.

Does this hit a nerve with anyone?

JBArk

There is definitely a real part of our genetic memory that has been hunted, and I often wonder if this is why people are so prone to seeing jaguars, snakes, etc.

Although, personally, I am in the camp of working to overcome past horrors. Infantile helplessness is far more terrifying than death itself (although, there is definitely a helplessness in being hunted), in my opinion; but the more I pass through these states and consciously allow my mind to experience them, without reacting, the more magnificently I seem to operate and deal with otherwise "scary" things, IRL.

I don't mean to undermine the intensity of being hunted. I just wanted to add, that, being completely unable to move on one's own, unable to communicate in any way, and then to become so overwhelmed with a frustrated desire or bodily NEED, that all you can do is, well, vomit (hopefully not on yourself, though I'm sure as an infant, I did)... There are a lot of ways to get rattled to the core!

I don't think repression is healthy. Perhaps a repressed dark side keeps us from dealing with reality in a compassionate, balanced, and healthy way?

I believe every emotion stems from fear, it is probably something innate that comes along with pain and suffering and being alive. Without fear, there is no love. For me, I experience fear in my life, but it is useful. I actually would like to use DMT in order to face fear. As one user stated on this forum, he said he would not mind using DMT to shatter his ego, his life and scare him to death in order to gain a benefit or understanding that will enhance his life. I believe fear is a necessity, because without it, we would all be living an easier life. I tend to be a little dark myself, sometimes thinking that I do not think normally or have an inclination to think or act a certain way.

Ive posted this before but Zhuangzi, a philospher once dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi.

For me dreaming kind of led me into the realm of DMT and altered states. I dream almost everynight, sometimes more than five dreams a night. Try using melatonin to induce REM sleep, it helps me, and is structurally similar to the DMT molecule. I never have any nightmares and have had a few lucid dreams, I'm still trying to do that regularly. I'd like to overcome fears I have in my life, so I can live in happiness.

Maybe horrors cannot be overcome, but merely faced. And lived. Maybe that is the point - part of an adaptive strategy to keep us feeling alive and striving and surviving by reminding us of our impermanence (at least in this form )



Not just hunted and hunting, but marauded, forced to defend one's family under peril of death, surviving inclement weather with little shelter and droughts and food scarcity and starvation.

All the things we have the luxury of avoiding. Our biggest threats are boredom, malaise, dissatisfaction, depression... A different order of concerns than that of bare survival and the horror that accompanies it.



Exactly! instead of repressing the need, perhaps we seek horror (and bliss for that matter) for extreme experiences to complete us as humans and fulfill a biological (and i daresay, spiritual) need to be turned upside down and shaken by the feet till our soul drops out!

Maybe the point in confronting horror is to somehow, without diminishing its effects, to grow "comfortable" with it, and to, in some degree, accept it. Easier said than done, right?

JBArk

Sublime wrote:


I agree wholeheartedly. But I am talking more of a fear an order of magnitude more intense: terror, or horror if you like. the abstract fear of death that allows for love is powerful, but not consciously terrifying.



I love this story/parable. It seems so real and true to me. But again not horrific. What is horrific to me in the DMT state is the notion that I don't really exist and never have: as a butterfly a human or even a distinct consciousness. This is what i seem to face now over and over on salvia, DMT and most recently my first acid trip - 4 hits x (allegedly) 100um/hit. Mushrooms are somehow different, so far.



Read my post above about "overcoming". I am no longer sure that overcoming is really the point!

JBArk

Interesting post Jbark. I do a lot of what you would call risky pursuits. That adrelaline thrill you speak of should not be underestimated. Nothing focuses you like the knowledge that making a mistake will kill you. Confronting that kind of fear I think is a modern replacement of the rush our ancestors must have felt when hunting / being hunted by dangerous prey. I dont think I seek horror in and of itself, but maybe the risk of that horror occuring is something I enjoy on some level.

With regards the fight/flight mechanism, I think we still use that often (but maybe to a lesser degree). Because of it, we are capable of reacting much quicker to any threat. Even if that threat is avoiding the car that cuts you up on the road, or running from the drunk guy who wants a fight after the pub shuts. It is a rare thing to use your full fight/flight mechanism now, but maybe it was in the past as well?

Sensing danger of any kind serves us well! I got told last night whilst in hyperspace that I should see my consciousness for what it is - a tool for my being to maintain itself. Getting scared stops us getting into trouble, and avoiding horror keeps us alive.

1664 wrote:



I was an international semi-pro bike racer for 10 years, careening down mountainsides alongside a peleton of 200 at 80km/hr, so I know all about adreneline!!

But its not the same thing as horror. Existential, ontological horror.



I fully agree. But the more contentious stance I was taking is that we seek out, and possibly NEED, horror. Maybe the horror reflex is like a muscle, and in order to properly avoid the real, threatening horrors in our life, we seek out the artificial, but nevertheless powerful, brand of horror to keep the "muscle" toned.

And when it is not available, perhaps nightmares step in as the proxy.



Or the guy at the pub who wants to fight... maybe people's aggressive behaviour can be explained in this light: a need to exercise the fight or flight mechanism - but, one step further, maybe we exercise this mechanism IN ORDER to raise the potential of facing horror...

Just a-musin'...

JBArk

I don't know anything more terrifying than having your entire sense of self obliterated and splintered into a million fractal chards and feeling like this is the way you will stay forever.

A friend and I were talking and have a theory that the deeper you go into hyperspace the more our monkey minds take over. It possible that the elves and aliens are simply signs of a paranoid psychosis universal in all humans. Perhaps when we reach a certain point of ego dissolve our minds out of fear have to blame something.

granted i don't totally believe this its just another theory.

The funniest thing is that the ripples from these extreme terrifying types of experience seem to be positive. Perhaps we need to be scared out of our wits once in a while to stay balanced and reminded of something primal and " other" .

Perhaps it helps us grow a better appreciation of this reality .
I can tell you I had some moments where i was never more glad to be in the presence of matter , my own life, my family and this world.

Felnik wrote:



Exactly! Why do we submit ourselves to this obliteration willingly though?



Religious/spiritual ecstasy = horror. This has been my experience thus-far.



Sometimes I think taking these substances is like cutting off your arm: you start to bleed to death, wonder why the hell you cut your arm off, but are forced, despite yourself, to face your own demise as well as facing the reasons for cutting off one your own limbs. Then the trip ends - amazement, stupefaction, bewilderment and an extreme joy bordering on bliss at the discovery that you still have two arms!

Then there is the other brand of horror: you chop off the arm, remember only the chopping having forgotten that you had an arm, leading to forgetting that you had a body the arm was once attached to, then forgetting the chopping itself and finally, realizing that the "you" you have forgotten never even existed.

The horror...

Then the trip ends - amazement, stupefaction, bewilderment and an extreme joy bordering on bliss at the discovery that you still have two arms and a body and a mind and a life!

The more I think about it, the more I find it hard to imagine that the experience of terror is not a biological/psychological human necessity at some level.

Or the pathological imperative of a diseased mind...

JBArk