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vovin
#21 Posted : 6/4/2010 12:22:41 PM

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Expriements will never be made with the eye. light cannot work at the quantum level as it does in a optical scope as the wavelength of light is far too large and the reason why the use electron microscopes. You will never be able to see anything at the quantum level visually there must be some kind of detection device that is designed to work at this level of matter and pretty much anything in this field will either detect by using electrons or by detecting fields.
If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
 

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endlessness
#22 Posted : 6/4/2010 5:27:06 PM

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here's another mental exercise: Suppose its an active observation.... What would that change in your daily life, Ya?
 
endlessness
#23 Posted : 6/4/2010 5:38:03 PM

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what are you talking about? I mean concretely, what are you going to make different in your life if that was the case? Are you gonna clean your room better? Be more respectful to people? Recycle more? Are you gonna give up all your posessions and go live in the forest? What would happen?
 
jamie
#24 Posted : 6/4/2010 5:45:54 PM

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Ya wrote:
I'm going to try to figure out how to hold a mirror up to the universe so it can observe itself clearly.

I'm going to become the mirror.


Havent you seen yet that you already are?
Long live the unwoke.
 
endlessness
#25 Posted : 6/4/2010 6:25:56 PM

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Sorry to bother you so much. I honestly was curious because you seem so identified with all this war between 'us the people that are open to the Other Side, and them, the scientific closed minded people', even classifying us in groups in another thread (me, jbark and burnt) completely ignoring the diversity each person's visions. So I was wondering why you are so emotional about it, why this is such a big deal for you. I want to you to see you take the argument to the ultimate consequences ("If so, then what" ) , to see what consequences each side of the argument has, that is so important to justify your energetic posts about this

I love discussing ideas but where's fine line along the way, where it becomes waste of time, mental masturbation, ungrounded unbalanced philosophizing, loose-minded speculation ? Each one has to find for his own where the line is. Im really interested in quantum physics, try to read and understand as much as a layman can, and admire the ultimate mistery behind it all... But I dont see the point in starting to make all sorts of assumptions and suppositions unless that is having a positive consequence in some way. So thats why I bring it down to earth, try to balance out the discussion... thats just who I am and I guess you have to respect that, I dont mean bad or to ruin the flow of the thread.

If you feel there is a better way to contribute to the thread, please do that yourself, instead of blasting out your emotions on me as if we're on a battle with each other. We've got enough drama in the forum already.
 
pau
#26 Posted : 6/4/2010 7:25:31 PM

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Slit experiment - watching the experiment changes the outcome
Schroedinger's Cat in the box experiment - cat is both dead and alive until you look inside
Time and space - don't exist until human mind jumps into the middle and observes

I had a very deep meditation/lucid dream once a long time ago in which a spiritual being floated across a field and then up to the bedroom window where I "was" at the time, and mentally conveyed to me, "Kill the mind".

Perhaps the mind itself is what creates the world as we know it....we see what we see only because we are thinking about it, analyzing and reacting to it .... but when we stop doing that, as some meditation practices proscribe, then the "world" changes.

Perhaps thinking, in a sense, turns off our internal DMT factory. Stopping thinking (in my experience 5-10 minutes does the job) the factory turns back on. Then, hold on tight!

Just a working hypothesis. In any case,these concepts make for wonderful contemplations during a San Pedro ceremony.
WHOA!
 
burnt
#27 Posted : 6/5/2010 12:37:22 PM

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Quote:
Burnt, you're so intelligent, so how about using your imagination to help imagine how you could prove this theory true? What test would prove to you that consciousness affects electrons? How should we set up the test? What will you say if the test disproves your current hypothesis about universe, namely your belief that the universe contains conscious life, yet the universe as a whole is unconscious and dead? What test would prove to you that the universe as a whole is conscious and alive?


I think you are profoundly misunderstood about modern physics. I know quite a few physicists and I've read quite a few books by credited physicists who slam these theories and reveal them as the myths that they are.

I've had these discussions here a lot with people here before. But I am not a professional physicist and I realized I need to be more careful about how I respond. So its going to take me some time to go over your points and respond to them.

You should understand that the idea that the universe is largely dead is not my hypothesis its the view that the vast majority of people on earth take unless they have some spiritual belief that tells them otherwise. I simply believe it because it fits with everything I have ever learned observed and experienced (even including profound psychedelic experiences).

 
Saidin
#28 Posted : 6/5/2010 5:42:48 PM

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burnt wrote:

I think you are profoundly misunderstood about modern physics. I know quite a few physicists and I've read quite a few books by credited physicists who slam these theories and reveal them as the myths that they are.



I just found this small article that comments on this quite nicely, and how the the claims that these concepts of a universal mind or consciousness are myth, is simply not true. There are world reknown scientists that support these ideas, so claims that "real" scientists have slammed or disproven them is blatantly false. Only those who cannot see outside the boxes they have created for themselves still hold onto antiquated notions of reality.

http://www.huffingtonpos...-is-techn_b_600900.html

Dr. Larry Dossey wrote:
These world-renowned scientists and thinkers did not arrive at their conclusions about the nature of consciousness in fever dreams, but by a careful analysis of evidence and experience. Yet there is a near-total blackout within current science toward these views and the abundant evidence supporting them. In its failure to acknowledge the unitary, collective, and fundamental nature of consciousness, science has set itself against the experience of many of today's brightest kids. This is a profound contradiction from which science is suffering, evidenced in its failure to attract and retain youngsters whose sense of being in the world does not resonate with the brain-based, isolated, individual, limited views that have been deified during the 20th century.


Emphasis mine.
What, you ask, was the beginning of it all?
And it is this...

Existence that multiplied itself
For sheer delight of being
And plunged into numberless trillions of forms
So that it might
Find
Itself
Innumerably.
-Sri Aubobindo

Saidin is a fictional character, and only exists in the collective unconscious. Therefore, we both do and do not exist. Everything is made up as we go along, and none of it is real.
 
MooshyPeaches
#29 Posted : 6/5/2010 6:45:09 PM

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Interesting thread! I have a couple opinions on some of the information but I dont feel like writing too much, also people lately seem to be taking offense (!?) to 'conflicting' perspectives lately (!?!?)

Thread continuessssss-----------------
 
Entropymancer
#30 Posted : 6/5/2010 7:03:12 PM

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Haven't read through the whole thread, but I wanted to make sure that one point is abundantly clear:

The results of the double-slit experiment does not change "when you watch it", at least not in the way that phrase implies. If you set up the double-slit experiment inside a black box and look the other way while you run the experiment, the results are exactly the same as if you were to run the same experiments staring intently at it. Plain old visual observation don't mean a thing to the electrons, they're happy to go through both holes and interfere with themselves (creating the familiar interference pattern) whether or not you are watching. That's a very common misunderstanding of the observer effect.

It's only when you set up a device to detect which hole the electrons go through that the observer effect comes into play. To detect which hole the electron goes through, any probe you set up must necessarily interact with the electron, and by doing so it changes the electron's behavior. If the probe is determining which hole the electron goes through, then the electron only goes through one hole or the other. It's no longer able to do both an interfere with itself, so you get a standard (non-interference) distribution pattern.

Say, for example, you use a low-intensity light source in the visual spectrum as your probe (an electron passing through light will emit a flash, in this case at whichever hole the electron passes through). You run the experiment, and see no interference pattern because the light (being the observer) disturbs it, causing it to pass through either one slit or the other (it no longer does both). Now suppose you suspect that the light may be disturbing the results and preventing the interference pattern because the energy of the light is too high, so you decide to start increasing the wavelength to lower the energy of the light. Well, initially the results are exactly the same, lowering the energy of the light doesn't make the interference pattern come back.

But remember that the ability to resolve two positions in space with electromagnetic waves (like light) as a probe depends upon the wavelength. As soon as the wavelength is large enough that, although we still see the electrons, we can no longer tell which hole they pass through, the interference pattern returns. Since the light can no longer differentiate which hole the electron goes through, the electron is once again free to go through both and interfere with itself. While we might still think of the light as an observer (it detects the electrons), it ceases to be relevant in the context of the observer effect because it no longer requires the wavefunction to collapse to a specific eigenstate.

In quantum mechanical terms, an observer is something which interacts with a particle in a way that forces the wavefunction to collapse to a particular eigenstate. I think this can help shed some light on the misunderstanding that informs pau's post above: human consciousness and observation are not requirements in quantum mechanics. The double-slit experiment illustrates this perfectly. The distribution pattern doesn't change at all "when you watch it"; it only changes when you set up instruments capable of differentiating which slit the electron passes through.
 
burnt
#31 Posted : 6/6/2010 3:45:15 PM

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Dr. Larry Dossey is a quack and nothing he says about science or the nature of the mind should be taken seriously.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3344

You guys really need to learn to be more critical of these kind of people. They are a virus.

The huffington post also frequently publishes pseudoscience.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=463

I know both my sources came from the same blog but the authors of that blog are crediable healthcare practitionors and this information can also be sourced elsewhere its just conveinent.

Also this eyebeam stuff isn't worth debunking.


Ya you need to go back to the basics:

http://vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8


 
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