enlightenment is beyond words.

word


sorry had to be done


I was listening to a Terence Mckenna lecture the other day and I really liked his view that things like meditation, yoga, mantras, rituals, drumming, etc... work much more effectively under the influence of psychedelics, and these tools are what we have left passed down to us without the keys and knowledge to activate them which are the psychedelic plants and their uses. He of course put it much more eloquently but that was the gist of it.

That's just not true. There are testimonies of people beeing "enlighted" while they were not "looking for". And considering the huge amount of people following a spiritual practice or another, the % of people speaking about their enlightment is quite low

Most spiritual teachers that I know are saying that "enlightment" can not be reached by any seeker, which is quite logical because enlightment is not an object.

The experience of seeing "who" you are has nothing to do with any technic (meditation or anything), nor any spiritual background. It can happens to anyone at anytime but it requires a "ego death". That's why I voted yes : the entheogens are the best and fastest way for giving a chance for that "ego death" to happens.

"Who" is wanting to experience that ego death thru meditation ? : the ego.
"Who" is wanting to improves itself with spiritual practices ? : the ego. How the ego could reach a ego death ? That's a suicide !
Well, taking enough entheogens is a kind of suicide for the ego. That's violent. That's dangerous... and that's "efficient".
However, spiritual knowledge is helpfull to try to integrate the revelation of an enlightment experience.



Osho : http://www.oshoworld.com.../04-07-enlightenment.txt

One cannot become enlightened unless one has drawn that experience to themselves, even if it is unconscious. Just because you seek, does not mean you will find what you are looking for. It can happen suddenly, gradually, or not at all, no matter the effort. Once understood it is most definately not the end of the road, so you never actually complete the process, it is ongoing. No spiking the ball in the endzone in triumph!

Enlightenment comes from within, if you are seeking something outside yourself, you will never find it. It cannot be taught, you cannot learn it from another, you must experience it. If you want it, you will never find it, because as you say the act of wanting is an egoic construct.



Entheogens may be the fastest way, but I disagreed as to it being the best way, simply due to the inherent dangers of ingesting an external substance that in essense poisons us into an altered state. Not everybody has access to these types of medicine either. Meditation will get you to the same place that entheogens do, but in a much purer and safer way for both the body and mind.



Correct. Wanting is desire, and desire is of the ego, and the ego is not who we are. How can you want something you already have?

[quote=Saidin][quote=Garulfo]


Entheogens may be the fastest way, but I disagreed as to it being the best way, simply due to the inherent dangers of ingesting an external substance that in essense poisons us into an altered state. Not everybody has access to these types of medicine either. Meditation will get you to the same place that entheogens do, but in a much purer and safer way for both the body and mind.





what are the inherent danger of ingesting mushrooms in an intelligent manner? why do you consider the effects of entheogens to be poisonous?

if you look around the planet we live on its full of plants meant for consumption, some nourish the mind, some the body and some the soul...

i just don't understand the prejudice.

The poll question is a total joke. The question assumes that there is a way to enlightenment, there is such a thing as enlightenment, and there is a person who becomes enlightened...... that there is a universe out there in which people exist, in which entheogens exist and in which people take entheogens for whatever reason, one being to get enlightened.

It is not a person who becomes enlightened, it is consciousness which wakes up to itself. There is nothing else and never was. If the form of what we call dmt is somehow worked in to all that.... that's cool. But dmt itself is a manifestation of IT. DMT cannot bring that which is already here. DMT is a teacher, but so can a grain of sand, or a hurricane be a potent teacher. And who knows which will teach you. Some people might take dmt and think they're enlightened, some apparently talk to elves.

You can talk about ego death and how entheogens might bring about such a state. Even so, ego death can still easily be interpreted and stored as yet another object in a persons memory once the high wears off. Even ego death can be just the next thing that only deepens the mytery.... or probably for a lot of people, just scare the living shit outta them. The fact is, truth is staring everyone in the face at every moment. If they don't recognize it now, there's not guarantee they'd recognize it on dmt. Seems more likely they'll idolize the dmt state, as if the answer lies somewhere in there, in the mysterious ultra powerful God state, the deeper meaning of life has been revealed. Sure, dmt may reveal some deeper meaning, but who or what is the deeper meaning being revealed? People might see truth and have no idea what they're looking at. In fact, that's what many are doing all the time..... and rightfully so..... that's what they're meant to do.... if they are doing it.

Yet still, I answered "yes" to this poll question..... being only a reflection of how I would have answered the question with the language I understood before taking dmt. What a mind job.

It says burnt was the last fellow to post in this thread, but I cannot see the post?

As I said not too long ago, I don't know about this enlightenment stuff. Perhaps there is a self, perhaps there isn't. Perhaps we are all One? I doubt it but if someone wants to accept that, that is cool. I care about the here and now, and as a "thinking thing" I want to help people. I care less about oneness and "consciousness waking up to itself" and more about bringing a smile to someone face before they die.

He may have voted but not posted, or he did post and then deleted it.

Wanting to help others, living in here and now and bringing a smile to someone elses face is consciousness waking up to itself. Unconditional love is the purest form it can manifest itself in. It doesn't matter what you call it, or whether you believe in it or not. Do and Be your truest self, whatever that means for you, and a path will be laid before you to follow if you so choose.

I see.

And fair enough, Saidin. I have enjoyed your posts in the time I've been on here, even though perhaps we have may have some difference in opinion when it comes to metaphysics (although maybe not at the end of the day!).

I will speak honestly, though I may sound rather silly, but being in the here and now, or being "open" which makes more sense to me (in a way).. is very frightening. When you are THERE, it isn't frightening of course, but letting go enough to get to that "place." I find it really scary. It feels like I may go nuts, or lose sense of reality/self.. But I know that I've been there and there is nothing to be afraid of. It is really hard to describe this type of neurosis. I'm sure someone on here knows what I am talking about, but maybe not.

Arrg, I'm sorry, I've had a couple of drinks and find it exceptionally difficult to talk about the frame of mind I would like to. Thank you for your reply, Saidin.

I said cut the self righteousness. The "enlightened" ones really have the biggest egos.

I didn't mean to start an argument by saying that which is maybe why the post was deleted. I was pointing out that I think most people who think they were enlightened really did wind up having big egos.

Thats pretty much exactly(!) what I have thought for the last few months. Every "guru" in the last century I have heard of has had the hugest ego out of all the anti-ego folk! All of them! Both Krishnamurti's, Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa.. all of them have had massive egos. Even further back, Padmasabhava and co. had massive egos as well.

Like I said previously, I don't care about enlightenment or other grandiose notions. If I can make my family happy, and people I meet content, I will die happily.

Nobody knows for sure, all we can do is the best with what we have, which are our experiences. I know I know nothing, but express myself to the best of my ability the understandings I have gained through those experiences. They will resonate with some, and not with others and that is just as it is supposed to be. I have no need to be right, as one cannot find truth if one has to always be right.

You will never sound silly if you speak honestly. If you communicate your truth to the best of your ability at the time you express it, then if someone finds it silly that is their own problem and has nothing to do with you.

I think I understand what you are saying, as I have experienced similar things. For me, over time and though expeirence I have mastered the fear, but I at times still have difficultly "letting go". Sometimes it does feel like you are losing your mind, but it is always temporary, and I find greater knowledge and understanding after having gone through it.

Thanks for sharing.

What is "enlightenment"?

I dont necessarily believe in it at the end of the day...how do we know what is enlightened to us is still some lower level of consciousness to some other beings out there..or do you guys buy into the idea of endpoints that are ultimate?..there will always be something beyone the next thing IMO. A state of enlightenment can only be termed as such according to the angle from which one views it.

Its a useful term, but to remember the significance of the context its used in is important.. other wise all the talk of "enlightenment" starts to sound very iffy and more like a goal or end point than just another bridge to something else.

Saidin,

I shall try to explain myself now.

I meditated for most waking hours for a number of days. The shit hit the fan at some point and I really freaked out. It was like my self and everything I knew was just torn to pieces, completely. That freak out lasted for an hour or so, then I came back to normal and was in bliss for a number of weeks. To explain how I viewed the world afterwards, it was as if everything was "new" in a sense. "I" was not judging things that I viewed or experienced, they just were what they were. I stopped adding my own interpretation to phenomena (but did I really? How can we tell if we ever stop projecting..? It seemed that way though). Everything was beyond good and bad, it just WAS (which actually was "good" in a sense, as everything seemed pure and perfect). To add to that, it felt as though I was living in my "heart" for lack of a better word. It felt like my heart was "delighting in being" or something like that. I felt like I knew myself and what I should do with my life. To be even more cliche, I also realised I was trying to escape by entertaining various philosophies, and that nature and everything I ever needed was always there (this led to me being deeply in love eveyrthing and everyone. Unfortunately, these types of insights fade over time). I was just too stupid to notice. It is incredibly difficult to explain and comes off rather crazy, understandably. I thought I was insane afterwards for sure, hehe.

I have spent a long time interpreting these events in a number of ways. It makes complete sense that I would adopt these values and show much more gratitude after experiencing a brief period of dissolution. But still, I think about it quite often.

When I say that I am very afraid of going back to that state of mind, that is the state of mind I mean (though I can't describe it very well I am afraid!). It is absurd quite frankly, as in that "place" I know I have nothing to lose.. But when I approach that frame of mind I am worried about losing something. Haha, it is all quite confusing, although it causes me a lot of worry and pain, I wouldn't change my situation.

At the end of the day, as crazy as what I have written sounds.. I tend to sympathise with burnt when it comes to consciousness and similar matters. Although, I admit that it is quite an assumption people make that consciousness is solely the product of higher brain function. But I don't know if this mystery means we can believe whatever we want. My guess is as good as anyone elses. I love hearing about other peoples views on reality. In some sense we are all trying to put together the same puzzle, of which there is not a great deal of useless pieces in my opinion.

My main goal in life is to be able to attain that state of oneness without being high on a substance. Not that I mind being high on a substance its just that there are other effects besides feeling enlightened that go along with substance use, like having a hard time walking in a straight line, not being able to sleep, gut rot and so on .

that being said i cant imagine ever knowing such a state even exists without having dmt to show me that it does..

that's why i voted yes .

Danza,

Thank you again very much for sharing!

I find this experience very interesting because it is almost exactly like the single most meaningful and relevatory dmt experiences I ever had. I found myself face to face with my higher self and was able to communicate with It. It took me a few months of research before I figured out what I had encountered, and the chance crossing of a piece of artwork by Luke Brown called Vajra Song, which was a depiction of the Vajrasattva, or Primordial Buddha/Higher Self. I was totally lucid, aware, and conscious of the experience, the first and only time that has ever happened to me on DMT. I had merged with everything, he chair, table, computer, bookshelf, books, trees outside, planes flying by. I felt such unconditional love that just thinking about it now, a year and a half later nearly brings me to tears. I too was in a state of bliss for a few weeks afterwards...I had created a connection, and though the intensity has faded it has never gone away.

Your reactions and interpretations are exactly what I experienced/experience as well. It does seem crazy, and I too felt at times as if I had gone insane. I have tried to explain it to other people but how can one explain something so utterly subjective? You have to experience it to understand it. I have found the worry and pain fades in time, searching for answers helped me understand much better, and with knowledge came peace, and the realization that no knowledge will ever be sufficient. The quest is never ending...

Your conclusions may be very different than mine, and that is just it should be. In the past year, the discussions on this board have helped me immensely to understand. I am so thankful and grateful for all the intelligent and open discussions that have taken place. They have helped me to understand what I am, and what I am not. Without this community, and the help of others, I may have still been lost.

I know I am an eternal being, and with that knowledge comes a burden. I too wouldn't change that for anything. I sympathize with and have compassion and understanding for those who interpret consciousness as solely an epiphenomenon of the brain, and sometime pine for a time when things were so simple. I don't care if they think I am deluded or insane or crazy...as I have been saying lately, people do not know what they do not know.

A final word of warning to others...Be careful what you wish for, because you might actually get it!

Namaste


Vajra Song

http://www.spectraleyes....artworx/vajrasong?full=1

I think the use of the generic word 'drug' in the English language is spot on for psychedelics included. They are tools for enlightenment somewhat like an immunostimulator would be a tool for healing infectious diseases. People can in many cases heal on their own, and even if taking an immunostimulator, the immune system would still do the work and finish up the job. But it would make the process quicker and easier, and for some people it would make the difference between healing or failure.

Dear Saidin,

I am sorry for the delayed reply.

Your reply resounds deeply with my own experience, as I am sure you have assumed prior. When I think upon my experience, I am nearly moved to tears as well. Obviously, it is something that is beyond the limits the language. An unfortunate realisation is seeing first-hand how language effects our perception of reality..

To see everything beyond one's own conception of "things" is something so beyond words. It is an amazing thing, to be so deeply in unconditional love with everything. A fellow on this forum wrote something very similar to my own experience. Becoming a "love bomb." I would go places and just project love onto everyone and everything, undiscriminately and for no reason. Arrrrg, to go back to that place.. I, and other folks I knew, were worried about the experience descending into mania (a very real risk in my opinion), but who really knows where letting go to such an extent leads? I thought I was experiencing psychosis, and perhaps I was.

I completely understand where you are coming from when it comes to explaining the insights with others. I was nearly reduced to tears trying to explain it to people, to share my TRUE heart/self with another person. To introduce them to this form of bliss. But, as you well know, how can one introduce someone to the absolute realisation of subjectivity? And to let go of subjective discrimination and just BE?

Indeed, be careful what you wish for! I studied spirituality and various spiritual practices (from Thelema to Aghora) since I was 15 (I am 23 now), and when you experience something you can reference to shit you have read.. Mind = blown.

I so wish that I knew when you were in Australia. It would have been delightful to go down to Sydney (I am in Newcastle, 90 mins drive from Sydney), and to share a couple of drinks and discuss these things in person. It is always so fulfilling and often times emotional. It is also unfortunately rare.

As I said before, whilst I think our experience is an emergent property of our brain.. I am not *entirely* convinced of this position, as when one thinks about suhc matters, it is obvious that things are very complex. I shall admit it is an assumption on my part, though I tend to believe it is correct. Again, as I said before, we all are experiencing reality subjectively, forming our own piece of the puzzle. No pieces should really be discounted.

I think there was a tale from Zen that I relate to in quite a strong way.
There was a master and a student. The master sent the student away for his hermitage and asked him to write about his progress as he progressed. After a number of months the pupil wrote back and said "We are all one! Everything is One! You, I, everything!" The master scrunched up this piece of paper and threw it in the trash. Some time later the master received another letter which read "We have no self. No-one is born, no-one dies." The master threw this one in the bin also. Many months past and the master began to worry. He became so worried he wrote to his student and asked if he was OK, and how he was progressing. The student sent him a letter saying "Who cares?" At this point, the master was very excited and went to visit his student.

I think that at the end of the day, we will realise that spiritual pursuits may end up being not as grandiose as we assumed. The freedom from looking for meaning is probably the most meaningful of all. When we have a family and friends that we can do nice things for, to help them and ourselves get through this life, do we really need anything else? Do we really need a greater insight?

The thing that troubles me, is I basically have to get drunk to have the courage to think and write about these matters. I am sorry if this post is all over the place.

All the best,

Danza

Well, you could be (not entirely convinced)... but it doesn't really matter.

We carry the blueprints of the spiritual dimension in ourselves. These blueprints are like informational DNA: we have the capacity to make them alive - to dream them into reality - through our consciousness. I strongly suspect that they do not exist at all if there is noone who manifests them. But if they come alive, they change how our brains operate: how we think, what we think to be possible.

It is not necessary that these dimensions have any reality beyond this. People tend to think that the imagination is less powerful than the forces of the material dimension. This is not so. Spiritual experiences can have a great effect on a person's behaviour. And by influencing a person's behaviour, they also have indirect control over this world.