The Quran may forbid any type of intoxicants, but not only is coffee a large part of both Arab and Turkish culture but cannabis has a strong historical correspondence with Sufism... I also doubt the Taoists do heroin for the spiritual possibilities therein. Mysticism of all forms involves communion with God/the other side, and true psychedelics of all forms do as well. I don't see how knowing some Sufis with a penchant against intoxicants means that Sufis who use rue are any less Sufi.

(I concede about the Kykeon, you know much more than I!)

I have to object on two points here. First, Hofmann's enthusiasm for LSD had little (if anything) to do with the theory. It was Wasson's brainchild, and it's Wasson's penchant for seeing fungi at the heart of every mystical experience that can be blamed/credited for the proposition. Hoffman's only role was in suggesting the means by which a nontoxic psychoactive preparation might be concocted from ergot.

On that point, a preparation by which ergot might be taken without the poisoning syndrome has been suggested: cold water. It would dissolve the psychoactive amides, but not the toxic clavine alkaloids.

Another point that argues for the ergot hypothesis is the inclusion of mint in the recipe. As pretty much anyone who has consumed lysergic acid amides with mint can attest, it dramatically changes the experience for the better.

Personally I haven't fully made up my mind on the subject, but ergot is a compelling candidate.

please define "real sufi"

I was going to just post a link to the section for the sufi group on the ayahuasca forums..but it seems you have to be a specially selected member now to even access that area..which I am not.

Here is an interview though with the founder of the group..this guy IS a "real sufi", and was innitiated into the sufi order..he gets into all the stuff you mentioned above picatris reguarding the Quran and entheogens.

http://in-a-perfect-worl...010-01-04T17_21_24-08_00

There's only way to define it, someone who was accepted in a Sufi Order. There are a couple of orders, mainly Egyptian and Turkish, but I sincerely do not know in which my acquaintance was initiated. We have discussed the whirling dervishes which he mentioned were not a common practice in his order.

I know almost nothing about Sufism, just what I was told from first hand experience, and one of the things is that they do not consume intoxicants in any form. Perhaps there are some "rebel sufis" who do drugs, but these are not, nor ever been the dominant current. I would love to see a study on Entheogens used by Sufi Orders, but so far no such luck.

Thanks for the info. I read about the cold water extraction, the issue is that no one has tried it. I certainly wouldn't. Ergot is a wild mix of alkaloids, way, way different from Ipomoea or Rivea seeds. The only way to even include this as remote candidate for the kykeon is to produce and test such a beverage.

Again making my point on standard tryptamines, the experience of Ayahuasca or a close relative is a Soul revealing religious event, something which is not quite what happens on LSD. Furthermore the duration of the LSD and ergot derivatives lasts for too many hours, which do not appear as natural for a religious experience. Of course Iboga lasts for up to 3 days, but the nature and purpose of the Bwiti ceremony is radically different from what we know about the Eleusis Mysteries

Soooo
we dont know if rue was hoama.... BUT we do know that it was and still is called esphand.
Soooo wouldnt that be its name then?

Aspand bla band
Barakati Shah Naqshband
Jashmi heach jashmi khaish
Jashmi dost wa dooshmani bad andish
Be sosa der hamin atashi taze.

Here is his English translation:

This is Aspand, it banishes the Evil Eye
The blessing of King Naqshband
Eye of nothing, Eye of relatives
Eye of friends, Eye of enemies
Whoever is bad should burn in this glowing fire.

"Rebel sufis who do drugs"? For Christ's sake, Sufism has traditionally gone hand-in-hand with cannabis use!

Here's the first source google handed me after the search "sufism hashish filetype: pdf"
A peer-reviewed, academic article entitled "Hashish in Islam".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....lnyacadmed00095-0056.pdf

Although it does mention that many Sufi masters and modern Sufi ascetics live a drug-free lifestyle, it makes no attempt to hide how intertwined they were at times.

Also, to Dorge, the problem with using the Aspand ritual is that although it utilizes Syrian Rue seeds, the ritual doesn't have the same method or intention as either rue+DMT or as haoma would have. Aspand is a ritual, where the seeds are burnt as incense to ward off the evil eye; haoma was a drink taken to better understand the universe and come into contact with God. Rue as an ayalogue is much much closer to haoma than to the aspand rite.

Thanks for the link! Great read. Yet it does indeed confirm my assertion. From the paper:


This was precisely what my friend told me. Also if you read the paper, it goes on to mention the much larger importance of alcohol in Islam, for which kif was a substitute for the majority of the population. Thus you could as well defend that alcohol was approved in Islamic countries, which it never was.

To summarize my point of view, I'm not arguing that drugs are bad or whatever (or I would not be here in the Nexus!) Just that I believe that some traditions have lived quite happily for centuries without using or needing them. And this is the case for sufis. I'm also not implying that no sufis used hashish. Some of them of course did, and the paper mentions some occurrences, but the general sufi orders were not users, and its use is banned for probably all of the current orders.

Another thing which I found interesting in the paper but which carries away even further from our subject is that the use of cannabis in the early times was by eating it. Smoking it appeared only about the XIII century.

The point I am trying to make isn't that Sufis or Muslims used hashish recreationally, which they did, but that the Sufis used it as an entheogen. Yes, Muslims did and do drink despite it being prohibited in Quran... but that's for recreation. I just wanted to make the point about entheogen use; that in some recognized Sufi sects it is permitted.

"some of the Sufis did use hashish in their religious observances... Some Sufis, as many Indian holy men had 20 centuries earlier, claimed the gentle herb expanded consciousness, brought insight, peace and repose, and closeness to God."

Many people of many religions use many different recreational drugs, but the only cases I'm interested in are the cases of entheogenic drug use. And it's entirely within the bounds of the overarching Sufi doctrine to use entheogens... Yes, intoxicants may be forbidden by the Quran, but Sufism itself (despite close, close, close ties to Islam) recognizes (unlike Islam) that the Quran is not the final word on the matter, God is. Sufism itself exists outside the boundaries of Islam, although most Sufis do recognize the Quran as the most complete holy text thus far.

Use of rue to come in contact with God isn't strictly proscribed, although probably frowned upon by the majority of modern Sufis. I see no reason why the Sufi group on the aya forum are any less Sufi than others.

Aspand is not the name of the ritual its the name of the plant. Espand, Esphand ect... My point is there is no evidence that hoama WAS actually rue... its just a theory. We have no idea really if its true. The only tradition of its continued use is burning it...
Makes a great changa ; )

You made your point clearly and I fully agree with you on most other aspects, except for the use of rue by sufis, and your following statement



I will only point to the following link of the "Fatimiya Sufi Order", yes the one on the Ayahuasca Forum. It's just their home page: http://fatimiyasufiorder.org/ Then browse through their documents. For instance, their sacred "Liber Decatriarchia Mystica" By Wahid Azal, which follows the terminology of Aleister Crowley and cites the "Golden Dawn" by Regardie and "Godwin's Qabbalistic Encyclopedia"(!). This volume, now fully online, is, according to the site, "the author’s inspired re-write of the Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Creation) to reflect this qabbalistic Tree. LIBER DECATRIARCHIA MYSTICA is Hermeticism, the post-Islamic Bayani gnostic path and the High Sufism of Ibn ‘Arabi married to shamanism and Qabbalah."

I will never bash any religion, no matter how strange and out-of-focus they may seem. But I will let everyone form their own conclusions from the information above.

I'll have to dig out the Flattery & Schwartz book for the bibliography (I think their arguments about soma are flawed, but they are very well-versed in Zoroastrian history), but I'm pretty certain that we know haoma was rue. We don't know if rue was the original haoma, but it appears to have been at least back to the time during which the Avesta was composed. I'll dig through my books and notes later to check on that.

Then what about Ephedra spp.? I can't see that Peganum harmala is a better candidate as haoma than Ephedra is. As far as I am aware, haoma is never mentioned as an hallucinogen - only as stimulating, physically strengthening and as a healing plant.

All can be said about ephedrine from Ephedra - it is a great stimulant and also relieves some physical symptoms of diseases such as the cold or influenza. In addition, over 100 years ago a group in Iran was found to use Ephedra under the names hum or homa, very similar to haoma.

I read their work too... I think it is also flawed and sort of pushing it. there is really no way of telling. This is one of the real problems I have with some of the entheo-history theories. There is just so much speculation, and little concrete evidence.

Ruemosa?

I already named it years ago... It's Harmalosa <<<<<<<<<<

Seriously! Its got a nice ring to it..

to me rue is soma..
I ate rue xtals for the first time a few days ago, sort of an unexpected trip..licking them off my fingers in an unknown ammount..not alot, just wanted it off my fingers..didnt look like much but it started to hit me hard and it was really really nice..I lay there thinking that I would be surprised if this wasnt the soma..sure seems a damn good candidate..