http://www.evolver.net/u...ns_south_african_healers

trying to get this on RS ATM. I think it will hopefully create some clarity on all of these silly natural vs chemical debates... which is idiotic to begin with.. nature creates chemicals.... jesus...

This is not exactly news, but it is indeed a very interesting subject! Keep in mind that 2C-B is not just some random RC. To me, 2C-B is on pair with LSD. It is non-toxic even in large doses, and provide a great euphoric feeling in addition to wonderful hallucinations. 2C-B is actually Sasha Shulgin's favorite, out of all substances he have ever tried. That is about everything, I believe...

lol... i know ive talked with him about it. 2CB is amazing. One of the golden few...
and yes its not news, i gave that as a caveat in the intro, but it has been heavily ignored... and i think it is really important that people take a look at what we have learned but swept away.
2CB is probably one of the most amazing substances out there IMHO...

So is 2CB sacred now too?

Everything and nothing is sacred.

I also believe that 2C-B is among the best entheogens ever invented by both the evolution of nature and by the laboratories of humans. High doses of it is truly amazing!

I have taken what I am fairly certain was 2CB (I know a very, very silly idea that I wont repeat- not being 100% of what your taking before swallowing) and I didn't enjoy the experience at all. Someone vanished in front of my eyes, I got blackouts and my mind felt somewhere else, I felt confused and unsure of what was happening around me. eeep. Not very keen to ever try it again. But I guess leading to this somewhat difficult experience was the 'set' - lack of knowledge of what I was taking and the effects it would have (when I took it I didn't know specifically what 2CB even did.)

I don't really have a problem in itself with synthasised chemicles, especially if I have wittnessed or participated in the process and thus know exactly what has gone into it and how i.e. with DMT. But I'm also a little more sus on a synth chem like ecstasy or crystal MDMA as unlike taking a plant, so many more random junk can be added in it & you have no idea (I guess arguably this can occur with plant material that other people have grown & added chems to like poorly done hydro marijuanna.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD260LPqHKA
"the drug had almost nothing to do with it. That drug (mescaline) allowed me to realize, to express, to appreciate what was there all along, and I was totally blind to it." -Shulgin

I love this interview.



What is sacred and what is trash depends on the values placed on them by the subject, the viewer, the "I." Your use of it, the way you think of it, the way you talk of it, makes it sacred. I think this is true, unless, you think value and significance is purely objective. Mescaline can be a poison, a sacrament, or it can be a "recreational drug."

at least that is what "I" think, take it for what it's worth, very little

Hmmm. Thats an interesting way of looking at it. [eep tone can be a lil hard to convey via txt, I'm not being sarcastic I do mean interesting =) ]

I guess you could say though things can be objectively sacred depending on the specific socio-cultural context. For example one may say something like " to the ___ people ___ is held sacred within their traditional culture." Though I guess in turn you could say ideosyncrasises exist within specific cultures and various individuals may themselves not agree with the customs and cermamonius manner of regard. Heh Im very undecided about this..

Jesus clouds do i even have to answer that question?
"Everything and nothing is sacred"
I guess not...
Thanks Glory... spoken like an eagle itself...
And well put lawn boy...
and as I said in the end of the article...
What do the shamans know that we do not?


You know Kaleidoscope eyes... there is a real learning curve with these...
I seriously recommend reading thanatos to eros...
there is a really strong somatic therapy that goes on with these medicines. that they talk about in this book. Some people have the type of experience that you speak of, shulgin and his peers found that a predose of MDMA cleared the body load for these people and they did not have that sort of experience there after.
Check it out...
http://www.maps.org/t2e/
SWIM has had the blessing to speak with both authors of this book... very elucidating.
SWIM has to say too... its best when you move closer to the source...

Kind of a rude responce to an otherwise nice thread, dont you think? I dunno what you whole problem is, but best not to take it out here.

I have wanted to try 2cb for some time now..It's really the only 2c I have any interest in. Im not too big on RC's, not because they arent "natural", which everything is, but becasue alot of them havent been tested and lack a history of safe use like mescaline and psilocin and DMT etc..

But ever since I took mescaline and MDMA those first times..the phens have had a place in my heart as great empathogens..I have heard so many great things about 2cb..and if it really is non toxic even at higher doses thats great! mescaline for me is a bit too long, I still use it occasionally but the length of 2cb does seem ideal..

Il have to try it sometime this summer hopefully.

Thankyou so much for that link, I really enjoy reading about psychoactives & love finding new books and articles to read =)

agreed... sigh...

SWIM was given 2ct2 once by shulgin... it was a really hard ride... amazing, and SWIM learned a lot... but really when asked how it really was in comparision to other medicines, SWIM opened up and let that larger voice answer... "it is further from the source." SWIM was surprised to hear that come from his mouth... but swim knew it was true... but what did that mean? Further form mescaline? perhaps... that is what swim figured eventually. 2cb on the other hand... is not further from the source... as far as SWIM is concerned... it is side by side with mescaline, brothers, cousins... perhaps 2CB is mescalines little brother... in a way.
2CI or E they are still fairly close to the source.. much like 2cb is... and i think each has its purpose... and specific medicine... the CTs however... they just seem distant. the more the chemical is tweeked the further it gets me thinks from the source.

I have three letters for you: T M A

@ Evening Glory: It's nice too see you changed your mind. I agree with the latest edition of your message.

@ Lawnboy: 100% in agreement. It is subjective.

@ Fractal: Maybe you need to read between the lines? What I'm trying to say is exactly the same thing that the second commenter at Dorge's great article at evolver.net said:



@ Dorge: You mention Shulgin a lot and how you know him and so on... so I assume you know that he says the following quite often:








By the way I loved the post. Except that I also think you are using the Shulgin card to promote your own views without really considering Shulgin's own views and mentioning them. I read the "spirits this / shamans that" thing... but I think that if you want to prove a point (all psychedelics are chemicals) you need to tell the whole story.

Anyway...

Nope I dont think I need to read between any lines..also I dont know how you extract that from your post..

Its the WAY you said it man..dont come back here trying to act like you werent just being cynical in a rude way. What you said was NOT the same thing as what was said in that second responce to dorge at reality sandwich. I mean come on..maybe YOU shoud learn to be a little more clear than in your posts so that people dont have to attempt to read between the lines just to figure out what your trying to say.

"Jack wrote:
Pretty cool, it shows how these substances are merely chemical keys to unlock certain things in our own minds and bodies. Nice post."

How is that saying the same thing as you said? They are not being rude or cynical..your post just comes off sounding like your sick of people defining something as sacred to them PERSONALLY..AGAIN!..which dorge didnt even do..you just sound rude man. You have some issue that not related to this thread and you decided to come here and vent..well sorry bud.

your that guy...
Why dont you instead do a better job then I. Get out there and do some good work. tell people what you feel they need to know. Communicate your ideas, tell that whole story, instead of being the cynical critic and bashing some one elses attempt to help other people... do what you can to help other people instead. We need the help! I personally am not asking for yours... but I am sure that if you offered it up with your own ideas there are plenty of people that may wish to hear your opinions...

at any rate...

TMA 2 now... this is the second time SWIM has had that drawn to my attention today. SWIM has been curious about this one for a long time. Pray do tell... I know very few who have even worked with it. and I find that much more interesting to talk about the what i just said above...

What is TMA again?

You did not address my arguments, Dorge.

because I especially do not see a point in arguing with you...