well what do you all think? rememeber the question isn't asking if they are the only tool, rather the best tool at our disposal .

No. Meditation is. Entheogens can prove very helpful on the path, but they will not spiritually enlighten you alone. No chance at all.

Why? What does it mean to be spiritually enlightened, and why is it only one way to do this? And how is a spiritual enlightened state different from another state? What defines it? Are you spiritual enlightened? I know I am asking alot of questions, and it is not meant as an attack if you see it as such. It's just to create discussion, because you seem to have a very fixed idea of what it means to be spiritually enlightened and how to attain it.

Don't worry, I'm not taking it as an attack! To the contrary, I like the discussion you are starting. No, I am not spiritually enlightened. Far from it. I guess it all boils down to how one defines being enlightened.

I define spiritual enlightenment as reaching the state that Siddharta 'Buddha' Gautama did (according to the legend), essentially reaching the state of a Buddha. In this state one have knowledge about the higher planes of existence, one see in what way everything is connected and how one can end the experience of all suffering. In a nutshell one may say that it is reaching Nirvana, the state of mind where there is no suffering.

I believe entheogens can prove very helpful on this path, but I don't believe they can be used as the sole tool. Entheogens provide you with a very good way to see some higher planes of existence and some elements of how things are connected, but it all depends on how well one integrate this knowledge. They do not show you everything, not all they show you is the truth, and they do not end the experience of all suffering.

Many other tools exists, such as energy work as Kunlun and Yoga. But to the end it is all up to yourself, up to your own thoughts and feelings, the ability to know yourself and not your ego. I believe meditation is the key on this path. A combination of meditation, energy work, entheogens and possibly also other tools, is to me the closest one can come to the ultimate path.

I wouldn't say yes or no, as entheogens are powerful mind and heart opening tools of knowledge. If the knowledge isn't applied and utilised nothing much can be gained from journeying with entheogens. Meditation, yoga, healthy living and compassion are all vital elements that I personally incorporate with journeying with entheogens for self illumination.


Much Peace and Sunshine

And this is exactly what I was trying to point out through my questions, and what I wanted you to see. When talking about matters like this one should not step up on the high horse and claim to sit with the answers. Your first reply was in a tone that made the whole post look as if you knew exactly what spiritual enlightenment is, and how everyone on the path to this state should attain it. Thanks for taking a more humble approach through your second post =)

No, entheogens can help but I doubt they cure ignorance alone. I don't really believe in the buddhist meaning of enlightenment, but I do believe in knowledge as enlightenment, specifically the development of emotional intelligence, ethics, scientific and philosophical knowledge, with the goal of self-actualisation.

Personally I think that anyone who claims to be enlightened is an arrogant fool. Someone who is enlightened and doesn't think of themselves as such, well maybe they are because you can't have enlightenment without humility in the face of the perfection you can never attain.

it looks like i'm alone on my viewpoint so far. I don't claim to be enlightened but I do claim to be on the path to it and so far psychedelics have been the only real tool i've used to a large extent since meditation hasn't done anything for me really ( maybe I'm doing it wrong ) and I don't want to sell out personal experience to read someone elses book about such things . i suppose some dreams have helped me out as well. but mostly psychedelics .

There are many ways to achieve this state, meditation being the most effective in my opinion. Entheogens can be very helpful, due to their ability to shock and create wonder and mystery at the cosmos, which at the very least can help one begin walking the path.

"There are no shortcuts to Enlightenment. Enlightenment is, of the moment. It can only be accomplished by the self, for the self. Another self cannot teach enlightenment, and you cannot learn it from them. All they can do is share information, inspirtation, love, a sense of mystery that makes the other-self begin the seeking process that ends in a moment. But who can know when someone will open up the gate to the present?"

Yeah, and thank you for reminding me that my truth is not necessarily the truth of others. I agree that the tone in the first post was not favorable, but I do stand by it. I believe that what I stated is the case for most people. I also believe there are some people who believe it not to be the case, a belief that in many cases (or perhaps all) simply is wrong.

I reckon entheogens simply allow the user to formulate some of the right questions that need to be asked in the quest for spiritual enlightenment and probably get you this point quicker than other approaches.They can provide SOME of the answers and a humble seeker will come to realise that other questions remain to be formulated and subsequently answered.

I regard entheogens as tools which are very good for certain purposes but in the final assessment they do have their limitations.

Self-actualization IS the Buddhist meaning of enlightenment.



This is a paradox, as it is true that as part of enlightenment comes the realization that one knows nothing. If it ever happens to you, there will be no doubt.

^ Well said.

I voted no, but psychs are what got me on the spiritual path.

So, if I am trying to fix my car, is the best tool a wrench or is it a screw driver?
Sometimes I have to use a hammer, sometimes a bigger hammer.
Almost every time I have to use my head.

I think a good toolbox can keep your tools organized.

OF

I commented on another thread Yogasm about yoga. And I would say entheogens alone aren't enough. Sooo my post on yogasm asked about getting started with yoga but I am really interested in anything that could achieve the same outcome;
anyone have suggestions on how to get started on "assemblying my tool belt"

Conscious breathing, meditation and lots of pure water.

I think there is no one way for enlightenment. Just doing psychedelics or just doing meditation will never make you enlightened. Life will with it multiple experiences and paths.

Enlightenment cannot be found if one does not search.