We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Mycorrhizae Users Guide Options
 
ThirdEyeVision
#1 Posted : 4/12/2010 5:26:26 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
I wrote and posted this a few years back for salvia source and thought some here could benefit from it. I'll post updates and more tomorrow. My 8 foot Salvia's went through a freezing winter and died back literally to the ground and are now growing back strong as ever thanks to the help of these guys feeding her throughout the winter with no leaves.


Mycorrhizae Users Guide



Definition (Wikipedia):
A mycorrhiza typically seen in the plural forms mycorrhizae or mycorrhizas is a symbiotic (occasionally weakly pathogenic) association between a fungus and the roots of a plant. In a mycorrhizal association the fungus may colonize the roots of a host plant either intracellularly or extracellularly.


Benefits of growing organically with Mycorrhizae
• It actually produces antibiotics for the plant
• Plants become more resistant to disease.
• Seeks out and chokes root eating nematodes in the soil
• Squeezes into smaller spots roots can't reach to get nutrients
• Increases root system up to 100 times
• Caries nutrients to the roots
• Produces enzymes that break down soil to usable nutrients
• Carry and retain water for the plant, protecting against drought.
• Allows plants to absorb nutrients normally “locked up” because pH

Mycorrhiza is a fungus that forms a symbiotic relationship with over 95% of native plant life. The Mycorrhiza receives carbohydrates (sugars) from the plant roots and in return brings the roots soluble nutrients, the plant gains the use of the mycelium's very large surface area to absorb water and mineral nutrients from the soil, thus improving the mineral absorption capabilities of the plant roots. Plant roots alone may be incapable of absorbing the nutrients locked up in soils with either to high or two low pH. The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can however access these nutrients, and make them available to the plants they colonize. The mechanisms of increased absorption are both physical and chemical. Mycorrhizal mycelia are much smaller in diameter than the smallest root, and can explore a greater volume of soil, providing a larger surface area for absorption.


What to look for:
There are two form of mycorrhizae: those that penetrate the cell wall of the plant's root and those that do not. The ones that do not are called ectomycorrhizal; those that do are called endomycorrhizal or, more commonly today, VAM fungi.
Endomycorrhizal:Glomus, Gigaspora
Ectomycorrhizal: Rhizopogan, Scleropderma

Our Lady Salvia beds with Endomycorrhizal. So you will want to purchase a product that contains a diverse mix of endomycorrhizal species.

Most local nurseries won’t carry pure mycorrhizae, they’ll have them mixed with soils or fertilizers. So if you want the fungi alone the web will be your friend. I found many reputable sources of both information and products online.


How to apply:
Mycorrhizal application is easy and requires no special equipment. The goal is to create physical contact between the mycorrhizal inoculant and the plant root. Mycorrhizal inoculant can be sprinkled onto roots during transplanting, worked into seed beds, blended into potting soil, "watered in" via existing irrigation systems, applied as a root dip gel or probed into the root zone of existing plants. The type of application depends upon the conditions and needs of the applicator.

    [li]If using a Micorrhizae mixed with an organic fertalizer: the 1st inocculation its good to start with a "tea". Mix 1 cup of the Mycorrhize Fert. with 1 gallon of water and let sit for 24 hours. Pour 4 cups of the liquid over the root zone and sprinkle any undissolved particles over the soil. [/li]


    [li]For transplants; this is the best time to introduce mycorrhizae. Work the mycorrhizae into the soil under the spot you have chosen for the plant.[/li]


    [li]Only one inoculation is needed for permanent plantings (in the ground). Most of us will be growing in pots so I'd reinoculate while transplanting.[/li]



Pictures and Videos:
These plants were grown in the exact soils and conditions. Only difference is one was inoculated.




Here is a fascinating 12 minute video I found. It's made by a company that looks as if they are leading the research in this stuff.
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=408&

I'll update and add soon.
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 

Explore our global analysis service for precise testing of your extracts and other substances.
 
Infundibulum
#2 Posted : 4/12/2010 10:23:44 AM

Kalt und Heiß, Schwarz und Rot, Kürper und Geist, Liebe und Chaos

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 4661
Joined: 02-Jun-2008
Last visit: 30-Apr-2022
SWIM has used mycorhizzae granules at his home garden according to the manufactures instructions and he was not been amazed one bit. He's used it on salvia divinorium, morning glories, tobacco, hops, tomatoes, strawberries, phalaris grasses, parsley, chives, peppermint, spearmint, sweet peas etc with no amazing effects at all.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
Aegle
#3 Posted : 4/12/2010 11:39:56 AM

Cloud Whisperer

Senior Member | Skills: South African botanicals, Mushroom cultivator, Changa enthusiast, Permaculture, Counselling, Photography, Writing

Posts: 1953
Joined: 05-Jan-2009
Last visit: 22-Jan-2020
Location: Amongst the clouds
ThirdEyeVision

Such a lovely thread thank you my friend, its an incredible thing to witness such a beautiful symbiotic relationship.
Its amazing what a big difference it really makes to incorporate mycorrhizae...


Much Peace and Happiness
The Nexus Art Gallery | The Nexian | DMT Nexus Research | The Open Hyperspace Traveler Handbook

For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

The fate of our times is characterised by rationalisation and intellectualisation and, above all, by the disenchantment of the world.

Following a Path of Compassion and Heart
 
burnt
#4 Posted : 4/12/2010 3:04:31 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Extreme Chemical expertChemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 3555
Joined: 13-Mar-2008
Last visit: 07-Jul-2024
Location: not here
I know some researchers who do work on mycorrhizae fungi. For a lab training course we examined some of the commercially available myrorrhizae innoculums. Most of them don't contain anything and are a total rip off. I can't remember the vendors though it was a long time ago. Anyway be careful with whom you buy from.

Odds are any plant that forms mycorrhizal relationships with fungi will be doing it regardless of whether or not you innoculate it. The only exceptions would be hydroponically grown plants and plants grown in sterilized soil (which may not remain sterile over the growth period but still..).

AM fungi in particular are everywhere. Endomycorrhizal fungi can be a bit more rare as far as I remember.
 
ThirdEyeVision
#5 Posted : 4/12/2010 11:30:26 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
Infundibulum wrote:
SWIM has used mycorhizzae granules at his home garden according to the manufactures instructions and he was not been amazed one bit. He's used it on salvia divinorium, morning glories, tobacco, hops, tomatoes, strawberries, phalaris grasses, parsley, chives, peppermint, spearmint, sweet peas etc with no amazing effects at all.



Could be the wrong type or a bad brand like burnt mentioned. One thing as well though, synthetic ferts (like MG) will kill it off, synthetic ferts kill most beneficial fungus and turn the soil into plain old dirt. In order to keep the under ground life flourishing you'll need organics.

Mycorrhizae has worked great for my garden and has a noticeable improvement.
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
ThirdEyeVision
#6 Posted : 4/12/2010 11:40:01 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
burnt wrote:
I know some researchers who do work on mycorrhizae fungi. For a lab training course we examined some of the commercially available myrorrhizae innoculums. Most of them don't contain anything and are a total rip off. I can't remember the vendors though it was a long time ago. Anyway be careful with whom you buy from.


Your research paper isn't too surprising. Something like this is difficult for the layman to verify what their getting.

burnt wrote:

Odds are any plant that forms mycorrhizal relationships with fungi will be doing it regardless of whether or not you innoculate it. The only exceptions would be hydroponically grown plants and plants grown in sterilized soil (which may not remain sterile over the growth period but still..).


Most soils people use these days have had all the natural fungus killed off by synthetic ferts. So in the wild, I agree with you. In the garden, unless their farming organic I disagree.

burnt wrote:

AM fungi in particular are everywhere. Endomycorrhizal fungi can be a bit more rare as far as I remember.


In nature, they are everywhere. In heavily farmed areas and gardens with synthetic high N ferts they died off.

ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
ThirdEyeVision
#7 Posted : 4/12/2010 11:40:58 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
Aegle wrote:
ThirdEyeVision

Such a lovely thread thank you my friend, its an incredible thing to witness such a beautiful symbiotic relationship.
Its amazing what a big difference it really makes to incorporate mycorrhizae...


Much Peace and Happiness


It really is...
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
burnt
#8 Posted : 4/13/2010 8:42:22 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Extreme Chemical expertChemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 3555
Joined: 13-Mar-2008
Last visit: 07-Jul-2024
Location: not here
Synthetic fertilizers don't necessarily kill off AM or EM fungi. Although their application does reduce their population in the soil.

Its because the plants become uninterested in forming those relationships. The reason plants make this relationship is to share nutrients. The fungus gives nitrogen and the plant gives sugar.

They don't do it for free. If there is plenty of nitrogen around the plant won't want the fungus stealing its sugar.
 
ThirdEyeVision
#9 Posted : 4/13/2010 6:29:09 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
burnt wrote:
Synthetic fertilizers don't necessarily kill off AM or EM fungi. Although their application does reduce their population in the soil.

Its because the plants become uninterested in forming those relationships. The reason plants make this relationship is to share nutrients. The fungus gives nitrogen and the plant gives sugar.

They don't do it for free. If there is plenty of nitrogen around the plant won't want the fungus stealing its sugar.


From my experience and research chemical/synthetic fertilizers do actually deplete the soil of microbes including mycorrhizae. I have never heard of the theory that chemical/synthetic fertilizers simply makes the plants "uninterested" in forming these relationships. Honestly I don't think the plants have much choice. It is a symbiotic relationship but to the best of my knowledge the plants don't have a defense mechanism to stop the mycorrhizae if they decided they don't want them anymore. I would be very interested if you had new information about this I could read. I tried looking this up and didn't find this theory anywhere.

Mycorrhizae do a lot more than give nitrogen. To name a few.
1) Bring water, sometimes from as far as 30′ away, to the roots making the plants more drought-tolerant.
2) Bring minerals essential to plant health to the roots: phosphorus, nitrogen, zinc, manganese and copper.
3) The fungi present physical and sometimes antibiotic barriers to root pathogens, thereby preventing diseases.
4) They increase the tolerance of plants to extremes in soil temperatures and pH.
5) They increase the longevity of absorbing roots.
6) They help plants tolerate stresses like transplant shock, soil compaction, soil toxins and heavy metals.

The mycorrhizae eat the sugars that the plants would typically excrete into the soil attracting un-beneficial microbes. So I don't think the plants mind them eating it up.

There is much info on the net about them now. Do a google search to learn more about them. I attached a good article here too.

One thing that should be pointed out is most plants we grow are not native to our areas so their companion mycorrhizae won't be in the soil so they wont have that relationship unless we do step in.

To each his own though. I'm not an Organic Nut or anything. Just sharing what has worked for me and my garden. I try to stay organic as much as I can to keep a healthy soil which leads to a healthy garden.

http://www.urbancreeks.o...tilizers_Mycorrhizae.pdf
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
Infundibulum
#10 Posted : 4/13/2010 6:44:52 PM

Kalt und Heiß, Schwarz und Rot, Kürper und Geist, Liebe und Chaos

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 4661
Joined: 02-Jun-2008
Last visit: 30-Apr-2022
ThirdEyeVision wrote:
burnt wrote:
Synthetic fertilizers don't necessarily kill off AM or EM fungi. Although their application does reduce their population in the soil.

Its because the plants become uninterested in forming those relationships. The reason plants make this relationship is to share nutrients. The fungus gives nitrogen and the plant gives sugar.

They don't do it for free. If there is plenty of nitrogen around the plant won't want the fungus stealing its sugar.


From my experience and research chemical/synthetic fertilizers do actually deplete the soil of microbes including mycorrhizae. I have never heard of the theory that chemical/synthetic fertilizers simply makes the plants "uninterested" in forming these relationships. Honestly I don't think the plants have much choice. It is a symbiotic relationship but to the best of my knowledge the plants don't have a defense mechanism to stop the mycorrhizae if they decided they don't want them anymore. I would be very interested if you had new information about this I could read. I tried looking this up and didn't find this theory anywhere.

Burnt is right here and this is not a theory, it is a fact.

A very simple textbook example is about the relationship of the Nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria that assist in the assimilation of nitrogen by the plants. Plants do not absorb ammonia (=the source of nitrogen) from the soil, they absorb it as nitrate. Nitrosomonas and notrobacter bacteria working in tandem convert the non-utilisable ammonia to absorbable nitrate.

You actually state this thing in your post:
ThirdEyeVision wrote:
2) Bring minerals essential to plant health to the roots: phosphorus, nitrogen, zinc, manganese and copper.

This means that a plant can go without nitrosomonas and nitrobacter if you supply it with nitrates in the fertiliser.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
ThirdEyeVision
#11 Posted : 4/13/2010 7:33:46 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
Infundibulum wrote:
ThirdEyeVision wrote:
burnt wrote:
Synthetic fertilizers don't necessarily kill off AM or EM fungi. Although their application does reduce their population in the soil.

Its because the plants become uninterested in forming those relationships. The reason plants make this relationship is to share nutrients. The fungus gives nitrogen and the plant gives sugar.

They don't do it for free. If there is plenty of nitrogen around the plant won't want the fungus stealing its sugar.


From my experience and research chemical/synthetic fertilizers do actually deplete the soil of microbes including mycorrhizae. I have never heard of the theory that chemical/synthetic fertilizers simply makes the plants "uninterested" in forming these relationships. Honestly I don't think the plants have much choice. It is a symbiotic relationship but to the best of my knowledge the plants don't have a defense mechanism to stop the mycorrhizae if they decided they don't want them anymore. I would be very interested if you had new information about this I could read. I tried looking this up and didn't find this theory anywhere.

Burnt is right here and this is not a theory, it is a fact.

A very simple textbook example is about the relationship of the Nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria that assist in the assimilation of nitrogen by the plants. Plants do not absorb ammonia (=the source of nitrogen) from the soil, they absorb it as nitrate. Nitrosomonas and notrobacter bacteria working in tandem convert the non-utilisable ammonia to absorbable nitrate.

You actually state this thing in your post:
ThirdEyeVision wrote:
2) Bring minerals essential to plant health to the roots: phosphorus, nitrogen, zinc, manganese and copper.

This means that a plant can go without nitrosomonas and nitrobacter if you supply it with nitrates in the fertiliser.



I don't dispute that a plant can live without mycorrhizae, I simply say they live better with them.

Your example simply states that a plant can go without them, which is obvious. Just look at hydro setups, most only add synthetic ferts and the plants do just fine. A dead soil caused by to much synthetic ferts is just that, the dirt is now used as a growing medium and the plant is dependent on its nutrients from you.

What I thought was a theory and not fact was that synthetic/chemical ferts don't kill microbes they simply make the plants not want to build a symbiotic relationship with them. I didn't think the plants had a defense mechanism against mycorrhizae. Like I said, I would be interested to learn otherwise. Everything I have read has said the opposite so I am very interested in now hearing different.

I will continue to try to find info that backs up this new info. If you can provide any links I would really appreciate it.

I still believe in a healthy soil using mycorrhizae and organics but I do not discriminate against the grower using synthetics at all. To each his own.


EDIT: I did find info from Texas A&M University stating that synthetic ferts used at normal strenghts don't necessarily kill off mirobes. They do lead to leaching chems into water, etc. but don't necessarily kill off all microbes. Still searching for info about synthetic ferts making the plants not want to form a bond with them. If it's out there I'll find it.
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
Xt
#12 Posted : 4/13/2010 8:57:09 PM

.

Senior Member

Posts: 981
Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Last visit: 13-Oct-2022
You got any recommended brands or anything to avoid / look for?
Im a layman as far as growing plants is concerned but definatly want to try this out.
Ill keep reading some more.

“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
 
ThirdEyeVision
#13 Posted : 4/14/2010 1:44:57 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
xtechre wrote:
You got any recommended brands or anything to avoid / look for?
Im a layman as far as growing plants is concerned but definatly want to try this out.
Ill keep reading some more.


I've used several brands throughout the years but cant remember all the names. Mycorrhizae made for hydro setups are good for watering root balls of existing plants.


www.mycorrhiza.com/index.php?cid=8 : Makes a good product, usually labeled as Plant Success.


Hopefully Burnt can provide some insight on the brands to avoid. If you go to the above link then to the "Independent research" tab it validates Burnts college research that most companies sell bunk products. Out of I think 8 brands only 3 actually were active.
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
PsilocybeChild
#14 Posted : 4/14/2010 6:48:57 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 574
Joined: 24-Jan-2009
Last visit: 25-Aug-2023
Location: somewhere in the sands of time
This is great stuff.
But what would be better: ectomycorrhizal or endomycorrhizal?
and why?
―λlτεrηιτγ→
Kambo.me Forum
​Internet Security Walk-Through
[url=https://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=395.0]Tobacco Disinformation

PM me about personal Herbalist consultations.
Can do it over PMs as to not reveal personal information.
 
ThirdEyeVision
#15 Posted : 4/14/2010 7:47:27 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
PsilocybeChild wrote:
This is great stuff.
But what would be better: ectomycorrhizal or endomycorrhizal?
and why?


Depends on the plant.
Look for one that has a good variety of both types. Most retail kinds are combos.
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
PsilocybeChild
#16 Posted : 4/14/2010 7:48:02 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 574
Joined: 24-Jan-2009
Last visit: 25-Aug-2023
Location: somewhere in the sands of time
Thanks Very happy
―λlτεrηιτγ→
Kambo.me Forum
​Internet Security Walk-Through
[url=https://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=395.0]Tobacco Disinformation

PM me about personal Herbalist consultations.
Can do it over PMs as to not reveal personal information.
 
burnt
#17 Posted : 4/14/2010 8:42:14 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Extreme Chemical expertChemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 3555
Joined: 13-Mar-2008
Last visit: 07-Jul-2024
Location: not here
Mycorrhizal fungi have been shown to be useful in boosting plants resistance to disease and the like. So there are numerous advantages. But like I said in normal soil they are nearly always present. In heavily fertilized soil their populations are depleted.

Some plants are completely dependent on them for germination.

 
ThirdEyeVision
#18 Posted : 4/14/2010 8:52:59 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 545
Joined: 28-Aug-2009
Last visit: 05-Apr-2013
Location: Alfheim
burnt wrote:
Mycorrhizal fungi have been shown to be useful in boosting plants resistance to disease and the like. So there are numerous advantages. But like I said in normal soil they are nearly always present. In heavily fertilized soil their populations are depleted.

Some plants are completely dependent on them for germination.




It should also be noted that if your plant is not native to the soil being used there is a very good chance the correct mycorrhizae won't be present in even good soil. Which is why a good mixture of types is recommended.
ThirdEyeVision
It's the third eye vision, five side dimension
The 8th Light, is gonna shine bright tonight
 
burnt
#19 Posted : 4/14/2010 8:55:10 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Extreme Chemical expertChemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 3555
Joined: 13-Mar-2008
Last visit: 07-Jul-2024
Location: not here
^^Good point.

I know some fungi are very specific especially the endomychorizzae. I am a bit unsure how specific AM fungi are.
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest (8)

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.059 seconds.