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Possible new sources for tryptamines - a workthread Options
 
Ginkgo
#21 Posted : 3/28/2010 4:21:17 AM

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Thanks mate, your help is much appreciated!

I would very much like to believe that Mucuna pruriens is a possible source, but consider this: The paper I linked to (Szabo, 2003) analysed 20 different plants from widely different sources. Ghosal et al. (1971) also support the incredible low amounts found.

Szabo, 2003 wrote:
The plant materials used in this study originated from
various sources. Most had previously been assayed
for L-dopa content and screened for selected
indolealkylamines (Szabo and Tebbett, 2002). In
preparation for extraction, all seed samples were
ground in a Wiley mill with a 1-mm stainless steel
screen. Initial preparations for other sample types are
defined with the source description: (1) Raw seed
from a local variety of Mucuna pruriens found in
Malawi was supplied by the Rockefeller Foundation-
Malawi. (2) Leaves, stems, pods, and roots from
Mucuna pruriens var. utilis grown in the Rebublic of
Benin were collected, dried, and ground prior to
shipment by CIEPCA (Center for Cover Crops
Information and Seed Exchange in Africa, Cotonou,
Benin). Two whole seed samples (Nord 98 and IITA
9Cool of the same variety grown in different locations
were also supplied. (3) Raw seed was also sent from
the Agronomy Department, Auburn University,
Alabama. These samples had not previously been
screened for the presence of indolic alkaloids. (4)
Fresh leaf and stem samples of four Mucuna
accessions were planted, grown in greenhouses, and
harvested at the University of Florida, Gainesville,
Florida, from seed supplied by the Agronomy
Department, University of Florida and by ECHO
(Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization, Inc.,
Ft. Myers, Florida). The samples, designated mottled-
Gainesville, ECHO 92023 991E, ECHO 91080 991E,
and ECHO 60002 PG1 were chopped by hand in
preparation for analysis.


I don't consider it possible that so many different plants from so many different places all showed incredibly low amounts of tryptamines just by random. It couldn't have been just a few bad batches.
 

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69ron
#22 Posted : 3/28/2010 4:32:09 AM

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This is a quote from Dorge on this forum concerning Evodia fruit.

Dorge wrote:
Well SWIM has smoked the fruits quite a few times with a vaporizer and its worked fine. you definitely get a light 5MEODMT experience from it. So it does work. its just concentrating it that needs to occur. But with the fruits you have to vap it because it has other alkaliods in it that make you feel odd...
But they are very active...

You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
69ron
#23 Posted : 3/28/2010 4:35:12 AM

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Evening Glory wrote:
Thanks mate, your help is much appreciated!

I would very much like to believe that Mucuna pruriens is a possible source, but consider this: The paper I linked to (Szabo, 2003) analysed 20 different plants from widely different sources. Ghosal et al. (1971) also support the incredible low amounts found.


Well I've seen reports on Yopo like that too and they were found to be very wrong. It could be the extraction technique used. For example, if they used too much sodium hydroxide in the extractions they would destroy most of the bufotenine and get falsely low numbers in the tests. If the extraction solvent wasn't polar enough (if they used xylene or naphtha for example) they would also get very low numbers for bufotenine.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Ginkgo
#24 Posted : 3/28/2010 4:41:54 AM

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It is always a good idea to read the paper one is questioning. Pleased

Quote:
The extraction method was modified from the
technique described by Brain (1976). Approximately
0.5 g of dried plant or seed material was weighed into
a culture tube. (For fresh plant and dried pod samples,
~1 g of material was used with all solvent volumes
adjusted accordingly.) The sample was mixed with 3
mL of 0.1 N hydrochloric acid, heated in a boiling
water bath for 5 min, and allowed to cool to room
temperature. Three milliliters of ethanol were then
added; the sample was shaken for 10 min by hand and
centrifuged at 2000 rpm for 10 min. The supernatant
was removed by pipette to a fresh vial, and the residue
was re-extracted with the supernatants being collected
together. Ethanol was added to the combined extracts
to a final volume of 5 mL. A 1-mL aliquot was then
removed and filtered through a syringe packed with
glass wool coupled to a 0.45-μm PTFE syringe filter.
Just prior to analysis, caffeine was added as an internal
standard (20 μg mL-1). All solvents used were of
reagent grade. All water was distilled and deionized.
Suitability of the extraction method for the indolic
alkaloids (~95% recovery) had previously been
determined through a recovery study in which a mixed
standard containing all analytes was added to ground
seed samples at a level of 0.05% dry wt.


Does this extraction procedure seem wrong on any aspects? I honestly don't know, my knowledge on solvents is very limited.
 
69ron
#25 Posted : 3/28/2010 6:01:29 AM

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Looks good to me, but I don't know the solubility of bufotenine HCl in ethanol, so I couldn't say for sure. Some hydrochlorides are insoluble in ethanol.

They are in no way getting 95% of the alkaloids using that method. They extracted only 2 times, each using 6 ml for 0.5 grams, so their numbers would be lower than what SWIM would get using a Soxhlet, and much lower than 95%. That 95% should be ignored, its based on a fake extraction where alkaloids were planted in the material by man, so it means nothing. When you do that, you always get a better yield. In reality the alkaloids are inside the plant fibers and much harder to extract. In reality getting 95% of the alkaloids using that technique from a plant with the alkaloids inside the fibers is IMPOSSBILE. You need at least 4 very thorough extractions of the kind they performed to reach anything near 90%, and they only used 2. They probably got 60-80% of the alkaloids depending on how tough the plant matter is.

What happened after that? How was it tested?
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
69ron
#26 Posted : 3/28/2010 6:30:54 AM

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It's likely that bufotenine N-oxide HCl is insoluble in ethanol. It's very polar. So it would maybe not show up well in those tests. Very little is known about bufotenine N-oxide, but most plants that contain bufotenine contain substantial amounts of bufotenine N-oxide (often called “bufotenin oxide”).
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Ginkgo
#27 Posted : 3/28/2010 6:31:04 AM

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Here is the part about how the analysis was performed. I have attached the full paper (I also posted a link to it earlier).

Quote:
Alkaloid content was determined by liquid
chromatography with mass spectrometric detection
using electrospray ionization. (Table 1 contains a
detailed description of the instrumentation and
parameters.) Stock solutions of tryptamine
hydrochloride (99%; Aldrich Chemical, Milwaukee,
WI), serotonin (96.7%; Sigma), N,N-dimethyltryptamine
(Alltech), 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine
(Sigma), and bufotenine (Radian Analytical Products,
Austin, TX) were prepared individually. Bufotenine
and DMT were dissolved in methanol; tryptamine in
ethanol; and 5-HT and 5-MeODMT in water acidified
to a pH of 3.2 in acetic acid with a few drops of
methanol to assist dilution. A five-point curve (R2 ≥
0.99Cool of mixed standards was freshly prepared in
ethanol from the individual stocks each day; each
contained 20 μg mL-1 of caffeine to match the sample
extracts.
Qualitatively, the positive confirmation of a
compound’s identity requires comparison of the
retention time and the pattern of fragmentation ions of
the sample and the standard. These must all agree
within some limit of acceptability, generally, 0.2-0.3
min for the retention time and 5-10% for the ion
proportions. Due to the similarity in structures among
this particular group of compounds, close retention
times and the sharing of fragmentation ions were not
uncommon. There was also the reasonable concern
that one of the many previously unrecognized
analogues could appear in the extracts. To ensure
identification of any target compound believed to be
present, that sample extract was spiked to a level of 20
μg mL-1 with a standard of the suspect analyte and reanalyzed.
The unspiked and spiked spectra were then
compared against each other, as well as against the
corresponding standard. While identification depended
on multiple ions, mass spectra of the standards and
samples were also collected in selected-ion mode
(single-ion monitoring) to maximize sensitivity for
quantification. The [M + H]+ ions at m/z 161 for
tryptamine, the [M + H] + ions at m/z 177 for 5-HT,
the [M + H] + ions at m/z 205 for bufotenine, the [M +
H] + ions at m/z 189 for DMT, and [M + H] + ions at
m/z 219 for 5-MeODMT were selected for
quantification.

Table 1. Description of instrumentation and
parameters.
HPLC System
Instrumentation: Hewlett-Packard HP1100 system
with autosampler, degasser, binary
pump modules, and variable
wavelength UV detector (Hewlett-
Packard Company, Wilmington, DE)
Column: Adsorbosil C8 5 μm (4.6 mm ID,
150 mm length; Serial #97032088;
Alltech)
Mobile Phase: Solvent A: 20 mM ammonium
acetate in water
Solvent B: methanol
Gradient: 13% Solvent B for 2 min;
13% increased to 100% Solvent B
over 14 min; hold 8 min; 100%
decreased to 13% Solvent B over 2
min; equilibrate 5 min
Column Temp: 25 °C
Flow Rate: 1 mL/min
Injection Vol.: 50 μL
UV Detection: 280 nm

Mass Spectrometer
Instrumentation: Finnigan LCQ Ion Trap Mass
Spectrometer (Finnigan MAT, San
Jose, CA)
Range: 100-500 m/z full scan mode
Source: Electrospray Ionization
Spray Volt: 4.20 kV
Capillary Volt: 20 V
Capillary Temp: 220 °C
 
69ron
#28 Posted : 3/28/2010 6:51:58 AM

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This reminds me of all those early reports of Yopo containing mostly DMT, and then years later finding they were all wrong, that it contains mostly bufotenine.

I’m always skeptical of lab tests when user tests show activity, but a lab analysis doesn’t back it up.

The user reports say Mucuna pruriens is active when smoked and it feels like a tryptamine.

The reports that I read that said Mucuna pruriens was active were all based on smoking leaf material.

It could be something other than a tryptamine causing the effects of course. I wouldn’t write it off so quickly without testing it first. It could be that it contains something unknown that’s better than bufotenine or DMT. If that’s the case, you’ll never know until you bioassay it.

At some point SWIM will try smoking Mucuna pruriens leaves. Until then we have these lab tests saying it’s pretty much impossible to get tryptamine effects from it, and then users saying that’s not so. It doesn’t add up. So I'm not totally convinced either way yet.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
mindbody
#29 Posted : 5/9/2010 4:31:12 AM

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Where it says "papers needed" do you still need them? I can download some of them...
 
The Neural
#30 Posted : 11/7/2012 5:47:42 PM

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Has anyone any information (or considered/attempted) on Mimosa Scabrella/Mimosa Bracatinga seed content? It was stated that they contain DMT in Plants of the gods (Schultes E., Hoffman A., & Ratsch C. Revised and extended edition 2001, page 137). Just some food for thought (a vendor sells seeds for $9 per 500 seeds).

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

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Whatisreal
#31 Posted : 11/7/2012 6:01:14 PM
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I will try smoking some Mucuna leaves next time in Costa Rica. I've also heard David Wolfe say that people have been smoking mucuna leaves.
 
jamie
#32 Posted : 11/7/2012 6:07:40 PM

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^ david wolfe also says a lot of things..He also claimed to have DMT containing honey from hawaii(??) that he activated orally with cats claw. I like the guy but dont take him too seriously.
Long live the unwoke.
 
The Neural
#33 Posted : 11/8/2012 11:52:23 AM

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jamie wrote:
^ david wolfe also says a lot of things..He also claimed to have DMT containing honey from hawaii(??) that he activated orally with cats claw. I like the guy but dont take him too seriously.


Mucuna Pruriens leaves (and especially seeds) are reported by various sources to contain a variety of molecules, ranging from β-carbolines to nornicotine and some tryptamines. It is not unlikely that they are smoked by people. If one unreliable source (David Wolfe) claims it to be a fact, his unreliability does not invalidate the claim.

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

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jamie
#34 Posted : 11/8/2012 6:04:52 PM

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I already knew that. I never said the claim was invalid anywhere.
Long live the unwoke.
 
The Neural
#35 Posted : 11/11/2012 12:00:51 PM

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Apologies Jamie, judging by your answer on smoking mucuna pruriens leaves, it seemed that you questioned it's validity due to the unreliability of the source. My bad!

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

Disclaimer and clarification: This member has been having brief intermittent spells of inattention. It looks as if he is daydreaming in place. During those distracting moments, he automatically generates fictional content, and asks about it in this forum for feedback. He has a lot of questions, and is a pain in the arse.
 
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