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Methylene blue Options
 
Denargle
#1 Posted : 3/9/2010 10:16:32 PM

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Hey so i was reading the other night that methylene blue is an MAOI. If i was to take some before smoking 50mg of dmt would it make the trip last longer?
 

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Infundibulum
#2 Posted : 3/9/2010 10:56:51 PM

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How much is "some" you're after?

You may be after a nasty interaction if combined with dmt. Or maybe not. Better go for safer MAOIs and save yourself from turning blue.

SWIM has loads of it lying around but he'd never use it since there are other, probably safer MAOI's to pick from.


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Denargle
#3 Posted : 3/10/2010 6:21:17 PM

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I was thinking somewhere around 100mg, but if there's a possibility of a bad reaction between the two i don't think ill try it. Thanks for the help man. do you know if there's any maoi containing plants that grow in the western us or that i could buy at a plant nursery?
 
biopsylo
#4 Posted : 3/10/2010 8:19:43 PM

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ithink syrian rue grows in texas.
 
Infundibulum
#5 Posted : 3/10/2010 8:44:21 PM

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Denargle wrote:
I was thinking somewhere around 100mg, but if there's a possibility of a bad reaction between the two i don't think ill try it. Thanks for the help man. do you know if there's any maoi containing plants that grow in the western us or that i could buy at a plant nursery?

The best bet is using syrian rue seeds or banisteriopsis caapi vines, both available from the internet.


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gammagore
#6 Posted : 3/10/2010 11:21:57 PM

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This stuff seems like a bad idea.

Please rather use caapi, rue or an extract of either.
 
yayscience
#7 Posted : 3/11/2010 3:31:47 AM
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Honestly I don't think it'll be that big a deal. Apparently it used to be a fairly common practical joke to spike people's drinks with it to turn their urine blue (source: wikipedia). I mean, I'd try to get some purish stuff before fooling around with it, but I seriously doubt it would really hurt you.
 
Rhiozan
#8 Posted : 12/23/2016 5:43:23 PM
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I intentionally have to do some little necroposting here, because I was once researching the Methylene Blue and stumbled upon this thread.

First, I have to mention that I've got a considerable natural tolerance to psilocybin. My normal dose is 6-7g dried of a particularly strong strain of Cubensis (2 lvl trip). People reported "it was too much" (3-4 lvl) from having just 3g of the same batch.

After my failure with harmalas (i ended up very sick for the rest of the day I've had taken 3,5g harmala seeds tea), I started to look more into available MAOIs. I'm from Eastern Europe so Methylene Blue came into my radar, since its widely available here.

In overall, its relatively safe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3087269/), MB is an interesting substance with a long history of medical use in humans, yet it is still being researched at the moment for treatment of early stage Alzheimers and some cancers.

I've personally had taken it in oral doses of 10mg/kg, combined with consuming a fresh grapefruit (which had been proven to inhibit cytochrome P450). And for the first time in my life I could feel trip much better, everything was way brighter, there were more visuals, and the psychedelic effects were deeper (lvl 3). My latest trip was with Methylene Blue only (no grapefruit). It could be just a weaker batch, but the trip was shorter and weaker on 6g without grapefruit than it had been with grapefruit.

Safety measures for MB are same as for any MAOI. I had a lapse in my judgement an had a single salami sandwich in around 4-5 hours after ingesting MB and in like 15-20 minutes It felt like something bad was happening. I started to sweat and the general feeling was bad, but this reaction lasted merciful 5-10 minutes and could be just bad wave of trip afterglow. Nevertheless dietary precautions must be observed!

No side effects were noticed. Yes, its bitter to drink, but not as nearly as ghastly as harmala. You are not likely to develop a nausea with MB. And yes, your urine will get blue for a few days after. Its not that bad, especially if you have a UTI or bladder infection. Your white porcelain throne could be temporary stained by your urine.

More research is needed, even though people tend to stick to the MAOI of their choice.
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ganesh
#9 Posted : 12/23/2016 6:38:48 PM

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moclobemide would be another possability. Pretty well tolerated and available apparently.
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entheogenic-gnosis
#10 Posted : 12/24/2016 12:22:05 PM
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Quote:
Background and purpose:

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) are known to cause serotonin toxicity (ST) when administered with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI). Methylene blue (methylthionium chloride, MB), a redox dye in clinical use, has been reported to precipitate ST in patients using SSRI. MB was assessed for MAO inhibition and so for its potential to precipitate ST.

Experimental approach:

Inhibition of purified human MAO was quantified using kinetic assays and visible spectral changes to study the interactions of MB with MAO A.

Key results:

MB was a potent (tight binding) inhibitor for MAO A. It also inhibited MAO B but at much higher concentration. Interactions of MB with the active site of MAO A were confirmed by its action both as an oxidising substrate and as a one-electron reductant.

Conclusions and implications:

MB is a potent reversible inhibitor of MAO A with implications for gut uptake of amines when administered orally. At concentrations reported in the literature after intravenous administration, MAO B would be partially inhibited but MAO A would be completely inhibited. This inhibition of MAO A would be expected to lead to perturbations of 5-hydroxytryptamine metabolism and hence account for ST occurring when administered to patients on SSRI treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...pmc/articles/PMC2078225/



-eg
 
JustAnotherHuman
#11 Posted : 12/24/2016 1:14:56 PM

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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
Quote:
Background and purpose:

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) are known to cause serotonin toxicity (ST) when administered with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI). Methylene blue (methylthionium chloride, MB), a redox dye in clinical use, has been reported to precipitate ST in patients using SSRI. MB was assessed for MAO inhibition and so for its potential to precipitate ST.

Experimental approach:

Inhibition of purified human MAO was quantified using kinetic assays and visible spectral changes to study the interactions of MB with MAO A.

Key results:

MB was a potent (tight binding) inhibitor for MAO A. It also inhibited MAO B but at much higher concentration. Interactions of MB with the active site of MAO A were confirmed by its action both as an oxidising substrate and as a one-electron reductant.

Conclusions and implications:

MB is a potent reversible inhibitor of MAO A with implications for gut uptake of amines when administered orally. At concentrations reported in the literature after intravenous administration, MAO B would be partially inhibited but MAO A would be completely inhibited. This inhibition of MAO A would be expected to lead to perturbations of 5-hydroxytryptamine metabolism and hence account for ST occurring when administered to patients on SSRI treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...pmc/articles/PMC2078225/



-eg


Damn, I didn't know there were actual studies on this. Thanks for sharing that entheogenic-gnosis! Very interesting stuff.
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Rhiozan
#12 Posted : 12/24/2016 2:01:56 PM
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[quote=entheogenic-gnosis]
Quote:
Background and purpose:

-eg



Thank you for posting this study. I had actually run across it a few times, but couldn't find in on pubmed anymore.

Ganesh, while Moclobemide would be effective and perhaps even more so than MB, the latter is obtainable much more easily, its an OTC drug in most (if not all) countries, while moclobemide is RX drug and is still not so cheap.

MB could be an good option for those who simply can't stand harmalas, since it does not normally cause gastrointestinal distress.
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ganesh
#13 Posted : 12/24/2016 6:36:18 PM

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Rhiozan wrote:


Ganesh, while Moclobemide would be effective and perhaps even more so than MB, the latter is obtainable much more easily, its an OTC drug in most (if not all) countries, while moclobemide is RX drug and is still not so cheap.

MB could be an good option for those who simply can't stand harmalas, since it does not normally cause gastrointestinal distress.


Yes. I have recently read up on MB and it seems an interesting compound. I guess you're needing to find the safe dose.
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ShamensStamen
#14 Posted : 12/24/2016 6:56:17 PM
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You know you can get around the Harmala-related nausea by taking it regularly, right? As the Harmalas reverse tolerance builds up, the majority of the side-effects, including nausea/vomiting/body load, goes away. You can even take like 6 drops or so of Lemon EO with the Harmalas to block out the nausea/vomiting for the first couple of weeks or so until the Harmalas reverse tolerance is built up enough that you don't need the Lemon EO anymore. And there ya go, no more Harmala-related nausea/vomiting/body load.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#15 Posted : 12/24/2016 9:06:14 PM
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https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=40841
Post 8 of this thread applies here.

-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#16 Posted : 12/24/2016 9:13:11 PM
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ShamensStamen wrote:
You know you can get around the Harmala-related nausea by taking it regularly, right? As the Harmalas reverse tolerance builds up, the majority of the side-effects, including nausea/vomiting/body load, goes away. You can even take like 6 drops or so of Lemon EO with the Harmalas to block out the nausea/vomiting for the first couple of weeks or so until the Harmalas reverse tolerance is built up enough that you don't need the Lemon EO anymore. And there ya go, no more Harmala-related nausea/vomiting/body load.


How regularly is "regularly?"

If you had to take them quite often would you not need to keep a good eye on avoiding consuming anything disagreeable with an MAOI for the duration of that time?

...or would you be taking them regularly, but spaced out enough so that you are not at constant risk of accidentally consuming something which could be harmful when combined with an MAOI?



-eg
 
Rhiozan
#17 Posted : 12/24/2016 9:20:34 PM
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40841
Post 8 of this thread applies here.

-eg


Well, I had found that topic via search as well. I wouldn't post in both and my choice fell to this one Smile
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Rhiozan
#18 Posted : 12/24/2016 9:34:51 PM
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ShamensStamen wrote:
You know you can get around the Harmala-related nausea by taking it regularly, right? As the Harmalas reverse tolerance builds up, the majority of the side-effects, including nausea/vomiting/body load, goes away. You can even take like 6 drops or so of Lemon EO with the Harmalas to block out the nausea/vomiting for the first couple of weeks or so until the Harmalas reverse tolerance is built up enough that you don't need the Lemon EO anymore. And there ya go, no more Harmala-related nausea/vomiting/body load.


Indeed I heard that one could develop a tolerance to harmala so not to have nausea anymore. However I believe that taking it for a while is an overkill if you just want to have it with shrooms or DMT like once in a few months. It's a MAOI after all and you've got to be careful. Those who have some sort of depression could benefit from prolongued intake of harmala, but a relatively frequent shroom user isn't likely to have any depression since as you probably know, psilocybin is a very effective antidepressant.

I used to have a deep depression myself due to some real life issues. After taking shrooms the edge of my depression and anxiety has gone away and it has been replaced with a more productive focus on day to day stuff.
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ShamensStamen
#19 Posted : 12/24/2016 9:41:30 PM
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
How regularly is "regularly?"

If you had to take them quite often would you not need to keep a good eye on avoiding consuming anything disagreeable with an MAOI for the duration of that time?

...or would you be taking them regularly, but spaced out enough so that you are not at constant risk of accidentally consuming something which could be harmful when combined with an MAOI?



-eg



Well, Tyramine is not an issue with Harmalas, they're RIMA's and not MAOI's. Regularly could be anywhere from daily to every 2 to 3 days or so, maybe even once a week, enough for each dose to get stronger as you go along, which then you can back the dosage down bit by bit as you go along. Currently, i'm into my 8th month i think of taking Rue seed daily, i started out with full spectrum freebased extract but then switched back to the seed powder in capsules when i ran out of extract, so as of right now i only need like 600mgs to 800mgs of Rue seed powder in a capsule for a super strong dose (probably equivalent to about 8 to 10 grams of Rue Harmalas).

I've noticed the side-effects go away after about a couple of weeks, the main medicinal effects stay but the majority of the side-effects go away, which allows you to take and handle stronger dosages better. I haven't noticed any interactions with any foods i eat, i'm not taking any medications that'd be contraindicated (like anti-depressants and such), and the Rue feels A LOT better/cleaner with the reverse tolerance than without it, making it much easier to tell what might or might not influence or interact with the Rue.

Aside from that, the gut MAO-A inhibition only lasts for about 2 hours or less i've noticed, so when it comes to diet, i really don't see any potential issue there. I've also eaten many things right after taking Rue (with the reverse tolerance built up) and haven't noticed any dietary interactions at all.

Also if i remember correctly, it would only require once a week dosing to maintain the reverse tolerance, so that's good, but i like keeping the dose small but strong so i've been taking it daily, plus i've noticed it in a way stabilizes me and does feel very much like an anti-depressant.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#20 Posted : 12/25/2016 7:43:35 PM
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Things to avoid while taking an MAOI:

(As mentioned before tyramine really is not a concern with harmala alkaloids, though it must be considered with other MAOIs)

Quote:

FOODS TO AVOID

Alcoholic beverages
Avoid Chianti wine and vermouth.
Consumption of red, white, and port wine in quantities less than 120 mL present little risk (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; McCabe, 1986 ).
Beer and ale should also be avoided (McCabe, 1986 ), however other investigators feel major domestic (US) brands of beer is safe in small quantities (½ cup or less than 120 mL) (Anon, 1989; Da Prada, 1988 ), but imported beer should not be consumed unless a specific brand is known to be safe.
Whiskey and liqueurs such as Drambuie and Chartreuse have caused reactions.
Nonalcoholic beverages (alcohol-free beer and wines) may contain tyramine and should be avoided (Anon, 1989; Stockley, 1993).

Banana peels
A single case report implicates a banana as the causative agent, which involved the consumption of whole stewed green banana, including the peel. Ripe banana pulp contains 7 µg/gram of tyramine compared to a peel which contains 65 µg/gram and 700 µg of tyramine and dopamine, respectively (McCabe, 1986).

Bean curd
Fermented bean curd, fermented soya bean, soya bean pastes contain a significant amount of tyramine (Anon, 1989).

Broad (fava) bean pods
These beans contain dopa, not tyramine, which is metabolized to dopamine and may cause a pressor reaction and therefore should not be eaten particularly if overripe (McCabe, 1986; Anon, 1989; Brown & Bryant, 1988 ).

Cheese
Tyramine content cannot be predicted based on appearance, flavor, or variety and therefore should be avoided.
Cream cheese and cottage cheese have no detectable level of tyramine (McCabe, 1986; Anon, 1989, Brown & Bryant, 1988 ).

Fish
Fresh fish (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986) and vacuum-packed pickled fish or caviar contain only small amounts of tyramine and are safe if consumed promptly or refrigerated for short periods; longer storage may be dangerous (Anon, 1989).
Smoked, fermented, pickled (Herring) and otherwise aged fish, meat, or any spoiled food may contain high levels of tyramine and should be avoided (Anon, 1989; Brown & Bryant, 1988 ).

Ginseng
Some preparations have resulted in a headache, tremulousness, and manic-like symptoms (Anon, 1989).

Protein extracts
Three brands of meat extract contained 95, 206, and 304 µg/gram of tyramine and therefore meat extracts should be avoided (McCabe, 1986).
Avoid liquid and powdered protein dietary supplements (Anon, 1989).

Meat
nonfresh or liver
no detectable levels identified in fresh chicken livers
high tyramine content found in spoiled or unfresh livers (McCabe, 1986).
Fresh meat is safe, caution suggested in restaurants (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988 ).
Sausage, bologna, pepperoni and salami contain large amounts of tyramine (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; McCabe, 1986).
No detectable tyramine levels were identified in country cured ham (McCabe, 1986).

Sauerkraut
Tyramine content has varied from 20 to 95 µg/gram and should be avoided (McCabe, 1986).

Shrimp paste
Contain a large amount of tyramine (Anon, 1989).

Soups
Should be avoided as protein extracts may be present; miso soup is prepared from fermented bean curd and contain tyramine in large amounts and should not be consumed (Anon, 1989).

Yeast
Brewer's or extracts - yeast extracts (Marmite) which are spread on bread or mixed with water,
Brewer's yeast, or Yeast vitamin supplements should not be consumed.
Yeast used in baking is safe (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; McCabe, 1986).


The foods to use with caution list categorizes foods that have been reported to cause a hypertensive crisis if foods were consumed in large quantities, stored for prolong periods, or if contamination occurred. Small servings (½ cup, or less than 120 mL) of the following foods are not expected to pose a risk for patients on MAOI therapy (McCabe, 1986).
FOODS TO USE WITH CAUTION

(½ cup or less than 120 mL)
Alcoholic beverages - see under foods to avoid.

Avocados - contain tyramine, particularly overripe (Anon, 1989) but may be used in small amounts if not overripened (McCabe, 1986).

Caffeine - contains a weak pressor agent, large amounts may cause a reaction (Anon, 1989).

Chocolate - is safe to ingest for most patients, unless consumed in large amounts (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986).

Dairy products - Cream, sour cream, cottage cheese, cream cheese, yogurt, or milk should pose little risk unless prolonged storage or lack of sanitation standards exists (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986). Products should not be used if close to the expiration date (McCabe, 1986).

Nuts - large quantities of peanuts were implicated in a hypertensive reaction and headache. Coconuts and brazil nuts have also been implicated, however no analysis of the tyramine content was performed (McCabe, 1986).

Raspberries - contain tyramine and small amounts are expected to be safe (McCabe, 1986).

Soy sauce - has been reported to contain large amounts of tyramine and reactions have been reported with teriyaki (Anon, 1989), however analysis of soy sauce reveals a tyramine level of 1.76 µg/mL and fermented meat may have contributed to the previously reported reactions (McCabe, 1986).

Spinach, New Zealand prickly or hot weather - large amounts have resulted in a reaction (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986).
More than 200 foods contain tyramine in small quantities and have been implicated in reactions with MAOI therapy, however the majority of the previous reactions were due to the consumption of spoiled food. Evidence does not support the restriction of the following foods listed if the food is fresh (McCabe, 1986).
FOODS WITH INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE FOR RESTRICTION (McCabe, 1986)

anchovies
beetroot
chips with vinegar
Coca Cola
cockles
coffee
corn, sweet
cottage cheese
cream cheese
cucumbers
egg, boiled
figs, canned
fish, canned
junket
mushrooms
pineapple, fresh
raisins
salad dressings
snails
tomato juice
wild game
worcestershire sauce
yeast-leavened bread
Any protein food, improperly stored or handled, can form pressor amines through protein breakdown. Chicken and beef liver, liver pate, and game generally contain high amine levels due to frequent mishandling. Game is often allowed to partially decompose as part of its preparation. Ayd (1986) reported that the freshness of the food is a key issue with MAOIs and that as long as foods are purchased from reputable shops and stored properly, the danger of a hypertensive crisis is minimal. Some foods should be avoided, the most dangerous being aged cheeses and yeast products used as food supplements (Gilman et al, 1985).
https://erowid.org/chemi.../maois/maois_info2.shtml
It's not totally understood how various MAOIs interact with the body. Some are more likely to have negative interactions with foods and drugs than others. To be as safe as possible, avoid the following drugs while you are taking an MAOI antidepressant and for two weeks after stopping it.

All SSRIs (prozac, zoloft, and several other anti-depressants)
SSRIs block the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. Because MAOIs inhibit the breakdown of serotonin, the combination of MAOIs and SSRIs can lead to dangerously high levels of serotonin in the brain (serotonin syndrome). Symptoms of serotonin syndrome include nausea, vomiting, blackouts, memory loss, increased blood pressure and increased heart rate.
Demerol
Cold preparations (tablets, capsules, or liquids such as Comtrex)
Cough medications containing decongestants, Dextromethorphan (DXM)1, or Demerol
Sinus medications
Nose drops or nasal sprays
Nasal decongestants
Hay fever medications
Diet pills
Amphetamines --- speed
MDMA --- Ecstasy
MDE, MDA, and other "MD" compounds
Cocaine --- crack

MAOIs can and will dramatically increase the effects of some of these drugs to the point of becoming dangerous. Other plants and chemicals are intentionally combined with some reversible MAOIs (plants such as Syrian Rue or Banisteriopsis Caapi, or their primary active chemicals the harmala alkaloids) to intentionally increase the effects of chemicals such as DMT (as is done in many forms of the ayahuasca brew) or sometimes phenethylamines such as Mescaline or 2-CB. All of these "potentiating" combinations can be dangerous if used improperly.
https://erowid.org/chemi.../maois/maois_info3.shtml


-eg
 
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