The effects of nutmeg are clearly associated with its terpene fraction. Nutmeg with volatile fraction removed is inactive.

http://www.erowid.org/re...=6892&DocPartID=6302

There is a decent amount of evidence that safrole and myrsticin are active on their own or their metabolites (although there is no invivo evidence for their conversion to amines).

However that doesn't say anything about potential activity of other components in sassafras roots.

The reason sassafras teas are probably inactive is that these compounds are volatilized away. Although these compounds are fatty so their solubility in water isn't that great but still they should be in a cold tea. Someone needs to test that.

I think in order to figure out what is going on

1- someone needs to prove that essential oil components are not in tea or other preparations washed with acetone or prepared cold. Smell is a good indicator as the nose is VERY sensitive. Although further confirmation is needed.

2- someone needs to isolate the alkaloids confirm their structure and confirm biological activity.

This is the only way to arrive at a firm conclusion.

Safrole is again seems safe in food consumed at normal concentrations occasionally. I believe root beer is made from sassafras roots but safrole needs to be removed. But ingesting it in pure form is very risky. 5ml of sassafras oil can cause vomiting tremors (in adults) and even death (in children). Drinking about 10 cups of sassafras tea a day can cause excessive sweating.

http://books.google.com/...epage&q=&f=false

Most people make tea by boiling the root. That’s the traditional method. By that method, SWIM found it pretty much inactive. Because most of the reports of tea ingestion are based on this method of preparation, they have little meaning to me.

Because of tolerance build-up, a regular drinker of sassafras would NOT experience any effects from it, even if they used the cold water method of making tea.

SWIM's tests with sassafras washed with MEK and extracted with cold water show that tolerance to its effects develop easily and last a few days. So drinking it over and over throughout the day will lead to tolerance. You need a large amount at once for it to work. That's 20+ grams at once, not spread throughout the day. Very few people do that.

Until we know how they extracted the oils to determine that, you have to take that information with a grain of salt because it could be wrong.

The problem with that statement is that we don't know how they came to that conclusion. Was the material steam distilled or Soxhlet extracted to remove the oils? If so, and likely so, the heat from those processes could have rendered other compounds inactive. For example, LSD would not survive either of those processes. It would be destroyed by the heat.

Strong bases destroy things like psilocin. Strong acids destroy all sorts of things. Heat destroys things. Certain solvents alter things. We need to know the procedure used. If I can see the actually procedure, and can't find holes in it, then I will take it to be a completely accurate statement. Until then, that statement is questionable.

^^Yea definitely gotta check out the reference that the author is citing to figure out how they did it. SWIM's guess would be steam distilliation, compressed CO2 extraction, or solvent extraction (non polar like hexane or ether or something like this).

Burnt, assuming that's true and nutmeg's active principles are solely the volatile oils like myristicin and elemicin, do these themselves produce the serious side effects of nutmeg or are other oils responsible for this? In other words, is there a way to clean up the experience?

I've read that elemi oil contains elemicin and that it is much more pleasant with less side effects than nutmeg, and not as long lasting as nutmeg. Elemicin is much more closely related to mescaline than myristicin is.

Maybe elemicin is what gives positive nutmeg experiences. It seems that a certain percentage of nutmeg experiences are positive. Maybe nutmeg high in elemicin was used?

Look at these quotes from another forum talking about elemicin and elemi oil:





It's hard to find trip reports on Elemi oil. What I've seen so far looks positive. The majority of the nutmeg experiences are negative experiences.

Well according to table 3 in that paper I posted it appears as if safrole is more of a depressant and myristicin is more of the hallucinogen as well as elemicin. So the theory that you are developing may be true. However separating these components from one another would be very tricky. The wide range of effects reported by users of these substances could have to do with so many things such as sample preparation and starting concentrations as well as ratios of the compounds of interest.

Shulgin AT, Sargent T, Naranjo C. The chemistry and
psychopharmacology of nutmeg and of several related
phenylisopropylamines. In: Ethnopharmacologic Search
for Psychoactive Drugs. Efron DH, Holmstedt B, Kline
NS, eds., Washington: US Government Printing Office,
1967:202–214.

Duke JA. Handbook of phytochemical constituents of
GRAS herbs and other economic plants. Boca Raton, FL:
CRC Press, 1992.

Truitt EB, Callaway E, Braude MC, Krantz JC. The pharmacology
of myristicin: A contribution to the psychopharmacology
of nutmeg. J Neuropsychiat 1961;2:
205,210.

These are the citations of interest. But again the evidence is scant but still at least theres been some studies.

Also again this is all about nutmeg the alkaloids in sassafras could still be interesting or perhaps psychoactive compounds. No one knows.

Yeah, that paper says safrole is an anticonvulsant, Ca antagonist (calcium channel blocker), CNS depressant and anesthetic.

So it seems to support my idea that washing sassafras with MEK is removing a sedative and that sedative is probably safrole, as I figured.

It doesn’t list safrole as a hallucinogen.

This bit of information is helping to piece this together.


Here’s the info it supplies on myristicin and elemicin:

Myristicin: Ca antagonist, hypotensive, sedative, antidepressant, hallucinogen, anesthetic, serotonergic

Elemicin: antidepressant, hallucinogen, antihistaminic, hypotensive, antiserotonergic

What’s interesting is that it lists elemicin as antiserotonergic and myristicin as serotonergic. It also lists elemicin as antidepressant and myristicin as sedative.

I don’t know how accurate that paper is, but assuming it’s accurate, elemicin looks like a far better hallucinogen than myristicin does. That would help explain the purely positive trip reports I’ve seen on elemicin from elemi oil. It’s both an antidepressant and a hallucinogen, while myristicin is a sedative and hallucinogen.

Hallucinogens that are antidepressants include things like MDMA, mescaline, etc. These are some of the more pleasant hallucinogens. Elemicin is nearly identical to mescaline in it’s chemical structure. So it would make sense that it is both hallucinogenic and an antidepressant. Mescaline in low doses is an extremely effective antidepressant.

Hallucinogens that are sedatives include things like scopolamine, dimenhydrinate (dramamine), and are usually unpleasant experiences at hallucinogenic doses. I’ve read elsewhere that myristicin is also anti-cholinergic like scopolamine and dimenhydrinate. That doesn’t sound so good, and could easily explain all the unpleasant trip reports there are for nutmeg. Scopolamine and dimenhydrinate are anti-cholinergics, sedatives, and hallucinogens at high doses. Most scopolamine and dimenhydrinate trip reports are unpleasant.

If elemicin is the desired compound in nutmeg, and it looks like it is according to that paper, it may be a good idea to use elemi oil instead of nutmeg oil. Elemicin and myristicin would be hard to separate. Elemi oil lacks myristicin, but is high in elemicin, so it sounds like the way to go.

Take a look at the picture I added. It shows elemicin next to mescaline (it may take a while before the pictures are added, just refresh until you see them).

The oil of the grass "Cymbopogon pendulus" has been reported to contain over 50% elemicin content, maybe that's a
good source for extraction=)

http://agris.fao.org/agr...7060282.xml;US1997060282

http://cat.inist.fr/?aMo...cheN&cpsidt=13881380

Thanks imPsimon.

I took at look at that source. I saw one report say 53% elemicin in the oil. That's really good. Cymbopogon pendulus is kind of hard to find though. Cymbopogon citratus is more common. That’s the source of all lemongrass oil available on the market that I could find. Does that also contain elemicin? I could not find one single source of Cymbopogon pendulus oil.

Hmmm...It's referred to as "north indian lemongrass oil" in "this" link chapter 2.4.1.3. (page 71)
...There seems to be loads of information on lemongrass oils in there but i have to go bed now.
=)

http://books.google.no/b...%20chemicals&f=false

I have found sites which claim that "it" (cymbopogon pendulus) has been widely used commercially but all I can find are
the ones from the western (c.citratus) and eastern (c.flexuosus) regions.

If one really wanted to find North indian lemongrass oil It's possible that emailing one of the lemongrass dealers from
this link might help.

http://dir.indiamart.com...pcat/lemongrass-oil.html



Elemi oil (Canarium luzonicum) seems to be readily availible though.

"Elemicin (4-allyl-l,2,6-trimethoxy benzene), C12H1603, constitutes the principal constituent of Manila elemi oil, in which it was discovered by Semmler1) who also gave it its name. It is found in fraction 277 to 280° of elemi oil.2) In order to isolate elemicin, the fraction in question is boiled for half an hour with formic acid...."

http://chestofbooks.com/...-Oils-Vol1/Elemicin.html



Elemicin boiling point, flash point etc...

http://www.thegoodscents....com/data/rw1021681.html

Lots of places have Elemi oil. It's commonplace. Even the local herb store has it. That's something SWIM is planning to test in the near future All of the reports of elemicin from Elemi oil I’ve read look positive. But there are so few of them. I think it’s the compound people like in nutmeg while myristicin is the compound most people don’t like in it. Judging by the molecular shapes, elemicin is almost identical to mescaline, while myristicin is more like MMDA. Reports of MMDA are not that good from what I’ve read. I think that’s why it never became popular. It’s easy to make MMDA, but it seems like no one makes it.

It’s very possible that the action of elemicin will potentiate the effects of mescaline.

when i was a kid, i experimented with nutmeg.
It is definately active and hallucinogenic.

The effects where very much like oral cannabis.

Maybe this is interesting: when i ate the powdered nutmegs, i usually got these effects from them after about one hour. They would last for about four hours and they where kind of sedating and like i sayed, like oral cannabis, wich i consider to be of a psychedelic nature.

I also once chewed the stuff and spit out the nutmeg then. This led to hallucinogenic effects that where less sedating and more pronounced, but they set in much later than an hour after chewing them. I don't remember exactly how much later though, since it is more than 20 years ago that i did this.

The effects where much more visual as well.
There where strong stroboscopic effects, there where swirling effects and slight tracers. Objects where breathing slightly.

It also lasted longer.

Polytrip, as I’m sure you realize, chewing and spitting it out would lead to more sublingual absorption, while swallowing it would lead to little or no sublingual absorption. Different compounds absorb better by different routes. For example, 5-MeO-DMT is super active sublingually, but only slightly active orally. Mescaline is highly active orally, but only slightly active sublingually. So that if you have a mix of mescaline and 5-MeO-DMT and took it orally, you’d get more mescaline effect, but if taken sublingually you’d get more 5-MeO-DMT effect. I imagine the same would be the case with nutmeg. It’s likely that one method gives more effect from elemicin while the other gives more effect from myristicin (assuming these are the actives).

Myristicin is described as being marijuana-like, and sedating. Elemicin is described as being more upbeat, more simulating. So possibly myristicin is more active orally and elemicin is more active sublingually?

Do you have any idea of dosage or for how long you chewed it?
Fresh nut or grinded spice?

I brought this up because it indicates like 69ron is saying, that there is at least more than one active substance in nutmeg.

I don't remember exactly how much it was, but it was quite much and it where grinded nuts. It must have been at least much more than 15 grams, since 10 to 15 grams is normally an active dose when eaten and i chewed more than that.

I must add though, that nutmeg is an inferiour psychedelic compared to most of the substances discussed here.

I'm not going to experiment with the stuff ever again as long as i have acces to shrooms, ayahuasca, peyote, san-pedro, etc.

It's typically a drug for teenagers or inmates i would say.

I have 50 grams of Elemi resin I once bought for incense purposes. Very refreshing, gentle smell when heated gently (I prefer that to burning incense).

So, why not smoke some Elemi in a bong... Wonderful, wonderful smoke to inhale, no surprise: it's used for its fragrance!
And yes, certainly active! But I wouldn't call it psychedelic.... hard to describe, I'll perform some clean bioassays - no THC etc

So a few nights ago swim was having a conversation over dinner with some friends about sassafras, which made him decide that he wanted to get some sass and see what was up with it. The very next morning, he checked his email and found that he had "co-incidentally" received correspondence from another friend giving a fairly in-depth account of his recent experiences with said plant (further adding to the synchronicity of all this is the fact that earlier today, whilst in the middle of doing some research on sassafras, he received a phone call from yet another friend who told him he had just recently harvested some sassafras, and that during the same night that swim was having his dinner conversation with his friends, this other friend actually had some sort of spirit apparition manifest in his living room which was somehow associated with his harvesting of the sass!).

Anyway here's an excerpt from said email:

"I've found a friend out here, I might have already told you about before, but it seems like not. Sassafras Albidium. Mostly, people know about the plant for its safrole content (which if you smell the roots, I mean....root beer...yum). However, at the rainbow gathering I was given what was called a "shamanic extract of sassafras" which I figured was a solid crystalline form of safrole at the time, but since doing some research about chemistry, pharmacology, and the compounds present in sassafras roots....well, first, I made some sassafras root tea, which [my girl] and I confirmed had identical effects as the extract from the gathering. Then, I collected lots of root and made a strong tincture. The tincture had effects more similar to cactus than before. AND THEN, when I had performed sufficient research, I delved into it. Removed the safrole (which I heard has a sedating effect), then did an acid-base-nonpolar alkaloid extraction and voila! Crystals formed, I sampled them, and that's what it is! And what is it? Well, there are two isoquinolines in sassafras: Reticuline, which has a pain-killing/stimulant effect, also occurs in opium poppies as well as the roots of several varieties of apple tree; and Cinnamolaurine, which has a stimulant/psychedelic effect, and occurs only in sassafras and in camphor. They both have high pH's. reticuline has an interesting structure in that it is almost symmetrical in an L-shape. Cinnamolaurine, it has a methylenedioxy bridge on the primary phenyl ring and an n-methyl group, suggesting that the mechanism of its action is similar to the mechanism of MDMA's action. So this is an interesting development."

Definitely some useful information there, for instance this seems to be a firsthand confirmation that the alkaloids themselves are active, and that the safrole is indeed the sedating property in the plant... though it also raises plenty of new questions, such as what base and solvent was used, what the yield and dose was, etc. Also, this is thus far the only reference swim has found to the presence of cinnamolaurine in sass, though as mentioned above there are reports of other alkaloids not mentioned by swim's friend in this email...

Anyway swim has emailed this friend back, asking for more detailed information, and is waiting to hear back from him. Meanwhile he's ordering a couple pounds of organic root bark powder from a reliable source of high quality herbs, and is considering doing an STB with CaOH and pulling into some d-limonene, then salting out into some gar and evapping to get some acetate salts of whatever these alkaloids are... seems like a good starting point anyway, unless anyone has any better ideas.

CaOH doesn't generate too much heat, does it? Should swim instead be considering cold-basification of a CWE or something?

Swim may even decide to get ballsy and bioassay on top of some harmaloids, to test the hypothesis that MAO inhibition potentiates whatever alkaloids are in the sass. Of course swim is hoping to achieve satisfactory results with the sass alkaloids alone, and based on his friend's report, it sounds like he will... but for some reason the thought of "sassahuasca" sounds appealing, albeit not without some hypothetical risks (best to start small with that one probably).

Also, the ridiculous string of synchronicities that have manifested surrounding this plant during the past few daze seem to indicate to swim that there is a powerful plant spirit reaching out to him here... of course this is probably meaningless to you phundamentalist science-headz, but I'm sure some of the people on this forum know enough to recognize the significance of this

swim will do his best to post results from his own experiments, as well as any further correspondences he may receive from his other friends regarding this intriguing topic.

Ah ok, just now got dun reading the sass thread. Guess the cinnamolaurine thing's been addressed already

Still waiting to find out about the results of an alkaloid extraction... also wondering about the use of zinc oxide to perhaps un-oxidize some alkaloids, if in fact that's happening & is responsible for it getting weaker over time?

Guess there's only one way to find out...

Any thoughts on the best way to do a good food grade alk extraction are welcome...

Well SWIM got him some Elemi oil after reading this and he tried it ORALLY. He wasn't too concerned about using it orally because it's approaved by the FDA for use in food. Anyway he started with 3 drops, then upped the dose to 5, then finally 7.

At 3 drops orally it was noticeable after 3 hours. There was a very mild euphoria, and relaxed state of mind, and slight time dilation. It seemed to peak 1 hour after the onset and the effects lasted about 6 hours.

At 5 drops orally the effects were very noticeable after 3 hours. Again it peaked 1 hour later, and this time lasted about 7 hours. It was a beautiful experience. It was stimulating like a mild hit of LSD, with mescaline style body euphoria.

At 7 drops orally it was psychedelic for sure. SWIM was quite surprised. It wasn’t just a hint of it, it was clearly psychedelic. It was sort of like mescaline, sort of like LSD, it’s hard to say exactly. There were no visuals, colors were a little brighter than normal though. Again the effects started after about 3 hours, peaked after about 4 hours, and lasted about 8 hours. The euphoria felt was near the level of mescaline. The body felt warm, relaxed, there was mild time dilation present. The mood was peaceful. LSD-style psychedelic insight effects were very noticeable during the peak, but mild.

I am pleasantly surprised. Maybe I shouldn’t be since all of the other trip reports I’ve read about Elemi oil were also positive experiences.

It seems like Elemi oil is one of the greatest kept psychedelic secrets in the world. This stuff is sold at every essential oil dealer around the world, completely legal, and very nice!

SWIM has not experienced a medium dose yet though. At 7 drops maximum so far, it was still a low level experience. There were absolutely no side effects or any unpleasant effects experienced. It was as nice as a low dose of mescaline. Very smooth, euphoric, with the warmth and body feel of mescaline and the magical mind altering effects of LSD. It was nothing remotely like any of the nutmeg trip reports I’ve read.

I’ve read that at 10 drops visual effects kick in. SWIM is excited to up the dose at some point but he’s loving it at 7 drops. It’s as good as a low dose of mescaline at that dose and completely legal, which is totally amazing to me. How is it this oil is so commonplace and yet such a beautiful experience had by such few people?

SWIM has in total used Elemi oil about 6 times. It causes tolerance if you do it everyday. You need to skip about 2 days between use to avoid tolerance. It is SO CLOSE to mescaline in effects that I am utterly amazed that no one knows about it.

On this forum alone I think SWIM is the only one who’s tried Elemi oil orally. I only know of two other people on-line that have tried it. Only 2!

In SWIM’s limited testes he found it goes very well with coffee (just like mescaline does) and also goes well with 3 Datura stramonium seeds (just like mescaline does).

I wonder, is elemicin producing the effects on it’s own or is something else in Elemi oil playing a part of this?