Loveall wrote:But isn't pure vaporized DMT alkaline to the point of mildly irritating around the mouth/lips. And numbing post initial irritation?
Yeah it certainly is, it also depends on the temperature of the vapor when it reaches the mouth, if the path is short from using e-mesh or something like that the vapor is quite hot and numbing, with something like a GVG the vapor is much cooler, but yes you can still taste it and it has a numbing effect. But its very small compared to the irritation you would get by smoking it in a sandwich method and small enough that you might not even notice it or only notice it after you have inhaled a big dose.
Voidmatrix wrote:Thank you for all of the valuable information. I have some follow-up questions.
Considering how low DMT is dosed, how much of these negative byproducts (from pyrolysis and combustion) are formed? Are there really enough produced to be concerned? Do these byproducts accumulate in the body or does the body relieve itself of them over time?
Right it would be a fairly low amount, but its not unknown to see lung problems arising from the use of smoking freebase. For example, in chronic users of people who smoke freebase compounds (cocaine or methamphetamine), in these cases the amount of substance being smoked would likely be in the multiple of grams per week, they have been shown to end up with lung problems like emphysema, significantly more than users that use other ROA. So it takes time, but especially hot and acrid smoke and vapors, it does damage the sensitive tissue in the lungs over time. Even pure vapor, it is highly basic, it interferes with the mucosal membrane on the alveoli, and the lungs just aren't designed to take that kind of abuse everyday.
However, these should be viewed as the extreme cases, if the lungs are given time to recover, they will often very quickly. With DMT the overall volume and exposure is going to be significantly less, it also seems to be somewhat less caustic than something like amphetamine. But 40-50mg in one sitting, especially if it combusts, is still quite a lot of smoke.
The byproducts do not accumulate and will be quickly flushed out of the body, I would be most concerned about the immediate damage they do to the tissue, and the tissue can also heal quickly. The damage seems to come primarily from chronic exposure where the tissue damage accumulates and can't return to its normal state. In my experience , the main reason I switched to vaping was that I seemed to get more sensitive to the combustion products over time, the first year or so I smoked I never had an issue, but years later if there was any combustion at all my body would immediately react violently and cough to the point that any trace of it would trigger this coughing attack. So this is something to think about too, just how you are reacting to it.
There is the question of if byproducts could produce a transient molecule that is more toxic or mutagenic, any simple carbon and nitrogen aromatics could be produced by combustion, but I think this is negligible. I think to focus on the combustion byproducts is focusing on the wrong thing its not really the individual combustion products that are going to be damaging, its the combustion mixture itself of hot gas suspended particulates free radicals, etc, etc, the difference between smoke and vapor, and even vapor itself is damaging due to its nature, so the idea is just to limit that, find an approach that works and allow time to heal
Voidmatrix wrote:
It sounds like I should be using my vg much more, even for changa, which brings me to:
Mindlusion, do you notice a difference in experience when you vape changa instead of combust it because of the difference in melting and vaporization points between DMT and harmalas?
I'd be saddened to have to retire some of my pipes. But safety and health first.
One love
Actually, I'm curious about combusting harmalas in general seeing as how I smoalk them with cannabis pretty often.
Yeah that is a good point, harmala bp is higher so I have wondered that as well if vaping changa from a vg would be much different than regular combustion. However, I have not noticed much of a difference, it is also usually more powerful experience for the same amount of changa due to the enhanced efficiency the lower overall volume of smoke. Qualitatively it still feels different compared to pure freebase, at least in the aftereffects, the peak is often so overpowering you can't really tell the difference, but the low dose or after effects still feel as if the harmala has some effect. So perhaps even if there is some harmala getting left behind, the amount that does vaporize is enough to have its effect, vaporized harmalas are also highly potent compared to their oral potency.
I have smoked harmalas with cannabis in the past as well, it was always a bit harsher. If you like, switch to vaping and save the pipes for special occasions perhaps.
dragonrider wrote:
Well, tobacco also contains harmala alkaloids. So my reasoning would be that the damage of smoking tobacco is that of the burning harmala alkaloids+all of the other toxic materials in it.
So then smoking changa or cannabis with harmala's still exposes you to only a fraction of the toxic stuff that a cigarette smoker is normally being exposed to.
But there's no DMT in tobacco, or any other tryptamine. As far as i know.
By the way, tobacco doesn't actually contain harmala alkaloids, or it contains a very small amount, the high amount of harmalas present in tobacco smoke actually come from the dehydration of tryptophan present in the tobacco, which cyclizes and dehydrates to produce different beta-carboline alkaloids, like harmane, in that case it also seems to pick up a carbon from somewhere, or maybe by decarboxylation and condensation with another molecule containing a 2 carbon unit. But yeah in any case tobacco has quite a bit of MAO activity, still very small in comparison to what is required to activate DMT but it is thought to be responsible for tobaccos overall full spectrum effect, I believe there is some research into it as well in terms of the cancer causing effect , some of the enzyme inhibition can promote, but I don't quite remember
scaredofthedark wrote:ChatGPT wrote:Oxygen in the Air vs. Molecular Structure- Comment: "So my reasoning would be that the damage of smoking tobacco is that of the burning harmala alkaloids+all of the other toxic materials in it. So then smoking changa or cannabis with harmala's still exposes you to only a fraction of the toxic stuff that a cigarette smoker is normally being exposed to."
- Analysis: This comparison oversimplifies the complexity of smoke composition. Tobacco smoke contains a wide range of harmful chemicals, including carcinogens, and the exact composition of changa smoke would depend on its specific ingredients. Making direct comparisons without detailed chemical analysis can be misleading.
Specific Pyrolysis Products- Comment: "you will be getting both pyrolysis products and combustion products... with pyrolysis it will likely cleave along the ethyl side chain, giving you an indole or indole carbaldehyde, along with the trimethylamine which will decompose into formaldehyde and with further oxidation, carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides."
- Analysis: This comment attempts to predict specific pyrolysis products of DMT, but such predictions are speculative without empirical data. The complexity of pyrolysis chemistry makes it difficult to accurately predict specific products without laboratory analysis.
By-products of DMT Combustion This is all correct as well, although the first answer isn't saying much just restating the question, the question can't be answered though its not really the right question and it sorta points it out by saying it oversimplifies the complexity of smoke composition. Its not so clear that tobacco smoke is magnitudes more toxic than any other smoke, because tobacco smoke is the only smoke that people smoke ridiculous quantities of for decades, besides cannabis at least.
The second one is totally correct as well, still I would take chatGPT answers with a grain of salt, because often when does make mistakes, it states them just as confidently as it does when it makes correct statements. And if you are not able to identify when it makes a mistake, it will be misleading
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