Anybody here ever use benzodiazepiens with harmalas? My intention isn't to use them together, but the minimum time I should wait before I start using harmalas. WIth amphetamines, I waited seven days and everything was fine. I know it's very hard to die from benzodiazepines.

As far as I know, member corpus callosum, a medical doctor, set the Nexus standard advice on this subject years ago.

Hmmm, seems like it's fine to use them together. I'm not surprised. Thank you for the reply!

I don't think there are any contraindications using harmalas and benzodiazapines together, let alone amphetamine since drugs like diazepam are often used in the management of stimulant overdoses and psychosis. The combination could make you feel more drowsier than you would with either of them alone so I'd be extra cautious about dosage.

I don't think its very hard to die from benzodiazepines, I'd argue the opposite being very easy to OD or loose all your inhibitions and do something that'd wind up getting you killed. GABAergic drugs such as alprazolam, diazapam, GHB, alcohol, etc... are the worst at this and not only cause a disproportionately higher personal harm rate to the individual compared to other recreational drugs but also have a lot of collateral damage. That is loosing control of your inhibitions, motor function and harming not just yourself but other people. Benzodiazepines are notorious for causing black outs is well.

Indeed, when I said "it's very hard to die from benzodiazepines", I didn't mean that it's hard to overdose. I simply meant that by itself, benzodiazepines itself are usually not the culprit. Like you said, it's things done under the influence that are the culprit. As for the worst... I'd have to agree with alcohol; I think alcohol is way worse than benzodiazepines. Other than that, I think opioids are up there with alcohol being the worst, especially fentanyl.

I've personally consumed Xanax, Ativan, and Clonazepam (all separately and medicinally-dosed) on days i've also taken stiff doses of oral Rue. The combination can be perfectly fine/safe, however, it's worth keeping in mind that Harmalas do inhibit a few CYP liver enzymes, like CYP1A2, CYP2D6, and according to at least one study i've seen, CYP3A4, so anything metabolized by those enzymes, can be potentiated, and benzos are infamously metabolized by CYP3A4, so if Harmalas do indeed have CYP3A4 inhibition, then extra caution with benzo dosage is advised.

Thing is though, ime at least, i've tried to track down when the Harmalas' CYP inhibition is active and most potent, because i use the CYP1A2 inhibition to potentiate my sleep medicine Tizanidine (so that i don't have to use as much of the Tizanidine and i get a longer duration out of it), and it seems that if i take the Harmalas and Tizanidine at the same time, it seems more properly potentiated as well as lengthened in duration, but i've also noticed potentiation of dosage (but not lengthening of duration) 6 to 10 hours after Harmalas depending on Harmala dosage/duration, whereas if i take Tizanidine like maybe 4 or 5 hours after the Harmalas, there doesn't seem to be much, if any, potentiation, idk why, but probably has something to do with half-life and metabolism of Harmalas in the liver, if i had to guess.

So with that said, you can take a benzo earlier on in the day and it be just fine, but if you take a benzo at the same time as the Harmalas, or during active CYP inhibition hours of the Harmalas, you'll want to cut the benzo dosage down at least by half. So for example with my Tizanidine, on it's own, i require 8 to 10mgs of Tizanidine (as well as eating after taking it to help it kick in) to get me drowsy enough to go to sleep, whereas if i take Tizanidine during the CYP1A2 inhibition, i can use 2 to 4mgs and it'll be as strong as the 8 to 10mgs without the CYP1A2 inhibition, sometimes it's even stronger than that. So again, taking a benzo earlier in the day should be just fine, but if you take it if/while CYP3A4 is inhibited, dosage will need to be cut in half at least, maybe more depending on the level of potentiation. So dosage-wise, just be safe, don't overdo it on the benzo dosage, especially if taking them while CYP3A4 is inhibited, you can read up on something similar with people using grapefruit juice iirc to potentiate substances metabolized by CYP3A4, so there might be some benzo dosage recommendations in that scene.

I haven't yet tried having a benzo in my system whilst experiencing oral DMT, i've just taken benzos with Harmalas/Rue, so i can't speak on what a benzo may do to the DMT aspect, but for the Harmalas, especially Harmaline/Rue, they clean up the bodyload by counteracting Harmaline's GABA-A inverse agonism, i've also successfully used Alcohol for that as well, however, i think benzo's are a bit better than Alcohol, but overall, i recommend checking out Lemon Balm which inhibits GABA Transaminase which is an enzyme that is involved in metabolizing GABA itself, so with that enzyme inhibited, GABA levels rise, and provide some GABAergic effects, a bit milder than benzos for sure, but none the less, works wonders, also cleans up the bodyload, and smooths out the intense oral DMT come up, i've had no problems with Lemon Balm.

I do think this is a topic worth mentioning. Benzo and concomitant psychedelic usage has been discussed in numerous circles. One side argues low/moderate usage can help pre-flight anxiety, and the other party claims "to numb/dumb yourself is the opposite of psychedelics". My only addition to the argument for safety's sake is.. maybe take care if tapering or going cold turkey with benzo usage.

I think tapering/cold turkey along with beta-carboline use could cause rapid onset of BZD withdrawal symptoms. It's been a while since I read into this but the below links could give some direction. Beta-carbolines whilst being a weaker competitor of the BZD sites is also an inverse agonist... factor in half-lives, cyp enzyme inhibition, <insert neuropharmacology degree here>.


Benzodiazepine antagonism by harmane and other beta-carbolines in vitro and in vivo
Interaction of the β-carboline harmaline with a GABA-benzodiazepine mechanism: an electrophysiological investigation on rat hippocampal slices
Harmaline and other beta-carbolines act as an inverse agonist for GABA-A receptors and cause central nervous system stimulation and anxiety

Absolutely do NOT go cold turkey with a benzo. That can result in grand mal seizure. Doses must be titrated on a slow taper.

I'll add here as a footnote that I've recently found an admixture herb with benzodiazepine-related activity (positive allosteric modulation at some of the GABA-A alpha receptor subtypes/isoforms) that mixes very well with harmalas. I want to preamble here, this is something where one must do one's homework and thoroughly understand what one is getting into in terms of pharmacological safety.

OK, so I've had several very interesting experiences by adding a preparation of finely ground, dried hulls of the seed pods of Eschscholzia californica, the golden Californian poppy. I want to stress here, the morphine and other opioid content of this species is negligible at the most. Its alkaloids are benzylisoquinoline derivatives but that's as far as it goes. The main alkaloid, californidine, is a quaternary ammonium derivative so it doesn't cross the BBB. That leaves us with protopine, eschscholtzine, allocryptopine and reticuline as compounds of interest. One paper also mentions N-methyllaurotetanine but also that it showed no activity at a specific cloned GABA-A receptor isoform. Reticuline was found to be the active component in one study. Another study showed that protopine, eschscholtzine and allocryptopine interacted with the cytochrome P450 metabolic enzyme system in various ways, which is something to be aware of. More detail on all of that elsewhere.

Most of the studies used dried aerial parts, the whole plant, or roots. I'm not specifically aware of studies on the empty, mature seed pods alone. It should be noted, mine were aged for at least seven years before this run of experiments and during that time the finely powdered plant material lost a faint vanilla-like odour that it had started with.

With harmalas the anti-anxiety effect of the herb was noticeably enhanced and there was a certain element of euphoria. Laid down in the dark, there were CEVs to be seen. In one case this consisted of foliage and there was a sense of plant helper spirits. The most interesting bit came on sleeping. There was an enormous enhancement of dream detail in all metrics - colour, acuity, kinesthetic sense, emotions and storyline were all cranked up to hyperreal levels. In one scene, this science nerd girl lent me her special glasses and when I put them on the scene I was looking at in the dream was transformed into a false colour map like an infrared photo in full detail. Some plants became purple and the water orange, for example. The scene reverted to normal when I took the glasses off.

I remembered having had a romantic interlude with the nerdy girl in the dream while not actually having dreamt about it and was concerned in the dream about the implications it would have for my (IRL) long term relationship. The emotional content of this part of the dream really stuck with me.

In part of another dream I was swimming through cool, clear water and the sensations of that were utterly realistic. Every aspect of the refreshing wateriness was completely present.


Anyhow, that's just one snippet from my experiences with this combo and I wonder if anyone else has any insight into how the reliably repeatable dream enhancement effects might be arising. How do benzos affect dreaming? (I never tried them and have no intention of doing so.)

I get a sense that, used wisely, this property of this particular combination could be a powerful teaching tool for those on a path of self-awareness.

I tried Cali poppy without the harmalas (actually, with a ridiculously strong cup of motherwort tea) and, while there were some similarities in overall feel of the quality of my dreams, the hyperreal enhancement simply was not there. I should probably try it without the motherwort as well - but the harmala combo is just sooooo stunning it seems like a waste to take it without them.


This is surely the case, although I do recall reading that harmalas have anticonvulsant properties of some kind. Even so, if someone were to attempt tapering benzos with the aid of harmalas they should only do so with strict medical supervision. [My words are not in any way intended to suggest that anyone should try harmalas as an aid to quitting benzos and certainly they do not constitute medical advice.]

I should follow up the previous post with an explanation of what's happened since then. Basically I would not recommend frequent use of this combo (rue/harmala + Cali poppy pod) since after two days there were hints of what I interpreted as respiratory blockade. Cali poppy contains some quaternary alkaloids which could possibly have this effect; it could be that the metabolic effects of the harmala alkaloids slowed their clearance and cause an accumulation. There are various quaternary alkaloids that are known to have paralytic effects, respiratory or otherwise - leptodactyline, candicine and curarine, for example. This respiratory effect could well be cholinergic, as could the dream enhancement. If there would be a way of removing the quaternary alkaloids from the mixture, I'd be intrigued to know.