This...

I now believe in a universal energy, God!

Though I have yet to experience hyperspace, I'll add my thoughts on the matter.

I am a hardcore "atheist", but in the scientific sense: no, I can't disprove god, but the burden of proof argument is not a facile philosophical shortcut: it is absolutely essential to the Scientific Method, along with Ockham's Razor.

That said, even if I were to experience "true divinity" or some other kind of spiritual breakthrough, it seems logical to interpret in a scientific context. That is, we are dealing with a substance probably associated with spiritual emotions in the human brain, so when we suddenly flood the brain with it it makes perfect sense that one would be overwhelmed by religious awe. Why a totally subjective experience of this should change one's rational view on the world is beyond me.

Faith is faith, and you have it or you don't. If you wanna go by logic, science will always win the argument.

It may not change your view. Many people here are scientifically trained or at least inclined, and they apply this to their experiences, to the great benefit of the rest of us.

If you do experience hyperspace, you may see first hand the quantum soup of probability; you may enter into a symbiotic relationship with a collective consciousness; you will undoubtedly perceive something that exists in more than the three dimensions you are familiar with.

You may want to 'write off' these things, and find a box to put them in, or it may prompt you to apply your scientific approach to try to understand what the experience is.

And isn't ALL experience subjective? I would say that the words "experience" and "subjective" are really inseparable. Science is a search for objective truth and absolute reality, and the amongst the most noble pursuits of our species, but it is ultimately a process , a journey of discovery, and it is, IMO, not yet finished.

I'm certain that there is so much more to discover.

88, don't get me wrong: I am neither 'writing them off', nor am I anything less than obsessed with sharing said experiences. I'm simply saying that such experiences (from the descriptions I have read anyway) do not warrant abandonment of an atheistic model of the universe. This was simply a response to comments from apparent "former atheists". That is all.

I was an atheist to. I think a lot here used to be, many probably still are. Hyperspace and psychedelics have an amazing potential to unhinge firm beliefs, whether it be atheistic or any number of dogma. Tuning into a place more real than real and more miraculous than all the foretold heavens all while your previous idea of self dissolves could definitely shake the foundation of your atheistic model a tid bit. If it happens, don't resist it too much : )
I think god is consciousness and we are all god trying to realize our full potential, and that to some degree everything is conscious.

Its an interesting thread this, because I've always been curious what others see; there's been a great deal written here about the influence of prior belief, culture and conviction on the experience of hyperspace.

So I agree with you that the subjective experience of a western atheist may not see anything that would merit an abandonment of that world view. It may, in fact, strengthen that view. The OP seems to indicate that perhaps his prior conviction may have influenced his experience; (bearing in mind, of course, that the way we're all going about this could hardly be described as a controlled experiment so there may be other factors in play here.)

My own experience is one of sharing my consciousness with that of others; but not necessarily God. And even if I did think it was God, it wouldn't challenge the model of an atheistic universe; because the experience of hyperspace is defined by the psyche that experiences it.

I have described my own view as Gnostic earlier in this post; in that I really don't know, and believe there are limits to what we can in fact know. and I'd say that was probably where I was at prior to meeting the molecule. I believe there are mysteries beyond our wildest imaginings.

In hyperspace, I have found what I perceive to be another reality, an entirely different layer of existence that I can access with my enhanced mind, where I am in communication with others. We can ask if it actually is an objective reality, but I don't know if there is an answer to that.

My (very long winded) point here is that, my experience is shaped by me, the method and vehicle of that experience. So it is perhaps not surprising that what I've found in hyperspace is in harmony with that view.

So I'm very curious to hear what you will make of it, coming from where you're at!

safe travels

Oh man 88, I literally cannot wait for my friends to receive their various materials. Some non-drano lye along with xylene and fumaric acid will hopefully yield better results than they've had thus far. I'm sure my friend will benefit greatly from seeing things from the other side

Universe, I think we will end up essentially in agreement; this seems to largely be a question of the definition of "god". I still don't think it'll make me or my friends intelligent design groupies, though. But I guess we'll see

Little demonstration...

Think back to when you were a kid....
See your dad's favourite toy, be it a hifi, a camera, his prized african grey parrot...whatever.
Now break that thing, stuff it full of jam, pour tomato souce on it.... whatever....

NOW, does your dad smithe you? does he bannish you from the house to dwell the streets?
Nope! He might be pissed off, but he still loves you unconditionaly...

Now that is what we call being created in the image of God. The ability to put love above anything else....

I'm agnostic, and no account of hyperspace or otherwise has been able to convert me. My agnosticism amounts to this: I don't know of any god, apart from what I have been told. All accounts of anyone else's belief in a god I have heard have been questionable at best, but usually downright ignorant. Generally the idea of a god is employed as a sort of cop-out in that it forgoes any attempt at rational explanation and sluffs off the importance of critical thought and scientific exploration in striving for truth (NOT scientific or rational belief, this is beside the point of scientific or rational thought), otherwise it's wishful thinking and comforting to on an emotional level. Simply put, belief and faith are the easy roads, unless you're an existential sort of believer (as in the case of Dostoevsky and Kierkegaard)--then its a bit more complicated and the existence god is of no consequence to faith.

I am an anti-theist in the sense that even if there were a god, however unlikely, I would still be against it. If to be honest with myself is a sin, and I was created in this way and imbued with such a predilection, I want nothing to do with any god who would be so cruel. It would be much easier for me to pretend that there's a god, but I see little benefit to my worldly being from going the easy road except to have my faith constantly tested by the bitter realities of this world and to have the luxury of chocking it up to "god's divine will" and not having to dwell on those realities for a deeper understanding. There are qualities to life much deeper than conventional notions like god could ever possibly explain adequately.

goldenbloo, keep up the good questions! you'll figure something out one way or another.


like i said at the top of the thread, it depends on how you defeine "god."
(Alway always with the defnitnions i am! )


-just try and guess how old hyperspace is? and how old the entities might be? They may not be the "father of jesus," but a 50,000 year old elf could most certainly be god-like to us!



new thought: Could hyperspace have existed before the birth of the physical universe? if so, these creatures could be VERY VERY OLD and powerful!

hm....

Either the word, "god," has a common meaning or else it doesn't mean anything at all. I reject the word in general on the basis of its common meaning, especially in certain more specific usages, but I would also reject it in its meaninglessness, when simply tossed about to mean whatever anyone wants it to mean--a common problem with language in general, applying words so broadly and vaguely that they no longer bear meaning.


Presupposing that one's experience of hyperspace signifies the existence of an alternate persistent reality as a "place," is the sort of vanity that led man to assume that he knew the origin of the universe, the meaning of life, the nature of all things, or the existence of a divine realm, based on episodes of derangement or simply out the astonishment of the primitive mind (primitive in the sense of having a limited amount of information about the world at large) at the perceptual expansion available in plant matter. These are presumptions and most presumptions of this sort soon fall to the discoveries of those who actually put a bit of work into their explanations and don't simply jump to conclusions, as in most cases of science vs. religious tradition.

We can ascribe a surrogate mythology to the entheogenic experience based on the face value of the entheogenic experience, or we can explore what it might indicate in terms of our common ancestry (cultural, physiological, or even psychological) or our own personal psyche and even figure out how the experience may contribute to daily life and personal growth and development. Don't get me wrong, the former is certainly fun and interesting but should not be confounded as truth if a serious survey of the nature and value of the experience is to be conducted. As a suggestion, try approaching the experience as deeply internal (though not necessarily isolated, since the body is as much a part of the universe as anything else), bodily experience, rather than an out-of-body experience.

@amor_fati, I disagree about "god" having a common meaning. An absolute god, I remain agnostic about though suspect it completely false; in agreement with you, I would rebel just as well.

Regarding pagan gods, I have too much experience with them to reject their existence. Even traditional atheistic Buddhism accepts the reality of these entities.

I was brought up as an atheist. This stuff is the first thing that has come along to shake that perspective.

Now I don't know what it is, or what exactly its doing but I love it!!!!