It definitely is.

And round and round we go

Your observations are spot on and I've noticed this catch-22 also. Though some of trying to feel better about who I am is also a method of curtailing and managing constant fluxing depressive states.

This paradox is similar to my experience in doing many things better when I'm somewhat angry, which is annoying too: yes I want to well at x thing, but don't want to necessarily have to be angry to do it well

And I stated it how I did initially because in that moment that's how I was feeling and experiencing it, but you're right, the order doesn't matter, both are true.

I suppose I agree in the sense that there's much I've wanted to do, but for one reason or another haven't, and so have a sense of being unaccoplished. Really though this hypothetical person is a reflection most likely of the interrogative character of my father wherein a justification that satisfied him is always necessary. In turn, and as a result, I feel this inner need to always be prepared to justify myself. This is connected to my empathy, for when someone is not satisfied with a response I have about something I think or a choice I've made, I feel their nonsense, and I don't like it. Some of this is high sensitivity. Just an example of my needing to curb empathy, have tougher skin, and shrug more off.

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Right, so, is this something you want to change? Are you willing to sacrifice the chance of feeling accomplished, perhaps of feeling in control over your life, the chance of becoming someone that you can like and accept, someone that can meet your expectations?

Yeah, Im not sure your depression and the desire to change based on not feeling good enough are that different, essentially the same cycle as far as I can tell.

Im curious, when you do stuff better while angry, do you choose to be angry to do better at it? are you angry at someone? at yourself? how does that work?
Sounds like you dont see this as a good thing?

I don't think we'd be having this conversation otherwise



In some sense yes, but at the same time, one may be able to argue that I've already sacrificed some of these things. I probably will never feel accomplished. It may be one of those instances in which we are never satisfied. At the same time, I'd like to do more in some specific ways just because it means something to me, but find it hard to find the motivation to fuel such ambition. It's something that I try to not worry about, but the intrusion is always there. I've never really felt in control of my life and have accepted that. We have little control over what happens to us, but the most control over how we respond. And sometimes, we have less control of even that than other times. And for the last one, I often wonder if in many ways I am acceptable to myself based on my own standards and actions and am just not seeing it or able to see it.



It's a bit of an echo chamber where everything feeds off and intensifies and is intensified by everything else.



It may be a subconscious choice, but I don't consciously do so because I prefer to not be angry. And often times, it's just a situation that I'm mad at. A benign example, if I'm playing an FPS online and am on a streak of not going well for silly reasons (even if it's all user error on my part), I'm not mad at anyone, not even myself. It's purely the situation, to which I'm ticked off, zone in more without thinking about it, and start doing well.
I suppose it's not good or bad, but unpreferred and unpleasant.

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What kind of stuff did or do you want to do that you havent?

Yeah, I wouldnt be surprised if you have actually grown to the point where you are, on some level, kind of okay with who you are, yet the feeling of not having value, of not being good enough hasnt changed one bit.
You have been using those as your paradoxical fuel for growth, which kinda comes at the cost of yourself and the challenge now might be to separate your growth from your self-worth.
Does that sound fair?

Interesting, almost sounds like anger allows you to enter a bit of a flow state.

Eh, it's a long list, but I used to love playing and making music and that's gone by the wayside, took me forever to start working on my skeptic treatise, and certain other ventures.

Yeah, I'm not sure and am back to the "maybe I just can't see it."

Making such a separation will take time I'm sure, but perhaps it'll help if I stop doing the bare minimum for myself.

And that's exactly what it's like.

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What do you mean by stop doing the bare minimun for yourself?

We'll use psychedelics as an example. Rarely do I allow myself to redose with DMT or changa, though I tend to want to, I just don't allow myself for reasons mentioned in this thread. This kind of behavior extends to many other things.

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Oh, I see, I assume that means stop doing just the bare minimun for yourself and start doing more of those things you wont allow yourself to do.

Why dont you allow yourself to do them?
I cant really pinpoint where you mention that in this thread, I remember we talked about the aversion to good at some point, not sure if thats related.

How do you think that would help with the cycle?
Im sure its something worth pursuing in its own right, and maybe Im reading too much into it, but part of me wonders of that would be playing into the same catch-22.

Spot on.

I seem to never trust my reasons for doing things, there's this sense that the things I want to do are categorically wrong, I tend to feel undeserving of having my desires fulfilled, etc.

Doing more of what I want may play into that a bit, but if so I think it would be benign.

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Yeah, and that was you experience growing up, any bit of light that appeared iside you was put out immediately, at a time where you were essentially forming a sense of who you are, and so you learned that you must not be worthy, deserving of such light. Sounds like you also learned that love amd value are not something that exists within but without, and that you have to work really hard to get it.
Does that resonate on some level?

To be a bit more transparent, basically Im a bit worried that you might be trying to push this part of you away.
And as my friend here puts it, thats not really a good idea:


If you want to find your value you are going to have to sit with the part of you that feels like it has none, that feels like it doesnt deserve it, and you guys are going to have to start walking this path together.

It does resonate. And I suppose I find it hard to earn love, even from myself, though there's a lot of love in my life. A bit of imposter syndrome in thinking I've somehow bamboozled everyone.


The part of me that feels unworthy? This gives me something to ruminate on. While I don't disagree with myself (and touche, by the way), it's definitely easier to apply the idea to emotions and states that are more fleeting, like anxiety or fear, but this is nevertheless something to meditate on.

I appreciate you being a consistent sounding board for me

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Right?
Because love needs to be earned, there needs to be a good reason, a reason that satisfies the part of you that, I imagine, is going to feel like its not good enough of a reason anyways, not only that, no matter how hard you try, it wont matter because deep down you dont even deserve it anyways.

Yeah, the roots of these parts of us are essentially emotional, and if you manage to find some amount of compassion for them Im sure they will appreciate it.

I dont know of this will make things more confusing, but Im going to throw something else into the mix:
Your value is actually infinte and intrinsic, it doesnt depend on anything, you cannot alter or change it in any way.

The compassion thing I'll do my best with.

For the last part can you elaborate more on your stance. I could definitely generate arguments for and contrary to that statement as well as ones that are neither the same nor opposite.

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Not sure how to expand on it, its not really an intellectual statement and you are obviously welcome to reject it.
Think of a tree, it has inherit value, it casts a shadow for smaller entities to find shelter from the sun, from the rain, it gives fruit and leaf and it fills the land with beauty, not by doing, but just by being.
It all stems from separation, if you can see how every birth and every death, every laugh and every cry exist within you, you might start to grasp to true and humble value of your being.

Thank you again for that. It's something that I can't really agree or disagree with, so can't really accept or reject. There are other perspective held in the same level. I could also expand more on it's mutability as a perspective, but would seem to defeat the purpose of the discussion. I would like to give an example, in that the value is dependant upon the other creatures that benefit of the tree which removes it from inherent value, that is, it's value is still predicated in some way on other things aside from itself.

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I think I see your pessimism on the idea, but maybe it's a little self defeating. I think what I'm trying to get at is that yes, you can ignore the tree for it's shade, fruit, home for the birds. However, doing that doesn't remove the value it serves as a safe haven from the sun.

I guess what I'm trying to boil this ramble down to is this: I see your point that it's most logical to base value on an outside perspective. That being said, some people can't see the forest for the trees.

Take all this with a grain of salt. I'm one of those people who can't see the forest.

I think you may be mistaking my either desire for accurate understanding, my skepticism, or my present depressed state as pessimism I'm not trying to be negative at all.

Even the shade necessitates something to use it as a safe haven making the value contigent and dependent.

And your comment about seeing the forest or the trees, I tend to see both at the same time, lending itself to my comment about multiple perspectives.

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True, but the shade doesn't have the ability to be introspective about itself, ~I hope~ and just is. Definitely makes it easy to get lost in the nuance of personhood and what one's value is in our strange modernity. Wish I had something more solid to say about it, but I feel like an unreliable spokesperson for feeling confident about ones place in or understanding of the world.

It's a lot easier to sling metaphors and euphemisms that are open to interpretation and just hope it helps, than to try and be concrete about anything. Maybe that's a failure on my part while being well intentioned.

Hey it's all good. I really appreciate your contributions. It's okay if they don't assist me in the ways in which others or myself might like it to. I'm a very incisive person, and while I generally appreciate such, it is perhaps too much of a good thing and I can only turn it off so much

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