Tonight it finally clicked to me the importance of harmalas in the Ayahuasca experience. I came to this discovery as I began making my own brews; I would only use the threshold amount to inhibit my mao and thought that if I just upped the acacia confusa dosage in my brew, I could recapture the magic I felt last year with the caapi and chacruna brew that was given to me; a brew most definitely made with high levels of harmalas and DMT alike. I had it in my head that it was the DMT carrying those experiences, so I once again used 3 grams of Syrian rue and upped my acacia dosage to 10 grams.

What I got from this, was a light show. The acacia confusa most definitely had a voice, but it seemed content just showing me through the corridors of the hyperspaceship. It looked somewhat like the final boss room on Majora's mask. The thoughts I had during this were very practical and logical. I decided to play the entire Zelda ocarina of time soundtrack during this and funny enough when I purged the music when link opens a big chest was in synch with it. The acacia definitely imparted some good advice. But yet still, something was missing in this experience. I was seeing some of the most intricate DMT visuals I'd ever seen and yet, that emotional, sacred feeling that touched the depths of my soul last year just wasn't there. It was a light show with lots of practical advice.

At some point during this, I felt the effects of the acacia fade rather early and reckoned ​I could prolong it by smoking some Syrian rue seeds. So I loaded my pipe with them and as I smoked they popped dramatically. It seemed with each exhale the effects were coming back somewhat. But then something new crept into my headspace, something familiar; it was that sacred emotional feeling from my brew I had before. That's when it clicked that it was likely not the DMT but actually the harmalas that gave me that feeling. And moreover it seemed that this feeling greatly enhanced the actual connection to hyperspace on a more deep/touching/emotional level. It greatly enhanced the actual immersion into the DMT plane.

With this, it's clear to me that I haven't been using enough Syrian rue in these brews, if I'm to recapture what made me love Ayahuasca in the first place. I believe the brew that was given to me last year, which was a traditional brew, must have had a lot of harmalas and DMT. It was extremely brown and sludgy, and I know chacruna leaves aren't gonna make it that brown. Which tells me it had quite a lot of vine in it. That must be why it made me feel the way it did. So in the future I will be using more Syrian rue in these brews and perhaps more acacia too. I'm not sure how different from caapi it will be with the lack of THH, but that feeling when I smoked it was undeniably the same as what I felt before.

So with that, I can see why the tradition is called Ayahuasca, not chacruna. I believe harmala plants like rue and caapi must put you in touch with your underlying soul on a very profound level and I look forward to experiencing their power more in the future. Thanks for reading Andi hope you enjoyed.

Thanks for sharing. Bear in mind that the alkaloid profile of Syrian rue differs from that of caapi. Rue has - typically - much more harmaline and very little THH, whereas with caapi it's much the opposite. There may be ways of brewing rue to change this - I'm working on it

Got any plans to try the harmala alkaloids separately?

(Tried posting a slightly better reply earlier but the forum was glitching -- sorry!)

Yes especially after last night's experience. It's clear me they were a huge part of why I loved my brew I had last year, I just didn't know how they made it because it was from a friend of a friend that I didn't know. I'm glad I made the decision to smoke some rue seeds so I was able to catch a glimpse of this fact.

I was trying to explain this to you ...

Unfortunately there are still a lot of people who believe the brews are all about "oral DMT."

IMHO don't complicate things and confuse yourself with trying to alter rue at this point. Get to know it, develop a relationship with it. You can dive into experiments later if you are called to, but also IMHO, caapi is there for anybody who is looking for a "low harmaline, high thh" experience. I take the plants as the plants, not as a combination of alkaloids.

I don't know if I'm just blowing in the wind...

Bye.

You're not blowing in the wind, actually I was thinking of your replies to my topic about rue when that feeling hit me. I was like now I get what they were saying in that comment.

That's the thing, see - caapi might not just be "there" in certain situations. And, as you say, by learning the character of the plant one does indeed learn to play with it. And if these individual substances are like the notes or chords with which these plants sing and communicate with other living organisms in general - for that is a clear means with which plants do communicate (we can even use the term allelochemicals here, if we really want ) - one not only plays with the plant but also plays it as though it's a biochemical musical instrument. At the same time, it is a dance with the character of the plant. The feeling is the same, the terminology and technology is just a little different.

It's a bit like asking the musician who's just played Beethoven whether they know any Bach as well - hey esfand, do you know that song that caapi did - you know, the one that goes "dumda da dedee..."?

ControlledChaos, I am glad for that.

DFZ, you're right. Still, diving into altering rue as soon as meeting it seems a bit too early to my senses. Also I believe any such approach is best not imposed as a standard protocol, and the relationship with the plant should develop organically, the imbiber having the space to discover what they value and prefer most themselves. (*That rue is meant to mimic caapi should not be the prevailing perception. Rue is a distinct teacher plant.*) I actually alter rue myself but I do it biologically rather than chemically. It was a calling I had 9 years into my relationship with it.

I agree with you too. It has taken me over a decade to get to this point so I appreciate the discussion about not rushing into it. I'll keep on with my attempts to grow the plant but it's proving a little tricky in my climate.
I commend your efforts at working with the plants on a biological, horticultural level but until I succeed in cultivating my own I'm forced to emulate biological processes with the the use of things like ascorbic acid.

I've also been encouraging a few different kinds of sedge plants to grow in my garden in the hope that some - one - any of them might prove to be a viable source of β-carbolines alongside my sea buckthorn. We shall see. I can't rely on there being an endless supply of rue seeds either.

downwardsfromzero wrote:

..i think that's a really classic quote (not wanting to go too off topic)..
you could base a thesis on that...
there's the fundamental and then there's the harmonics, which resonate with each other...

re the topic agree with dithyramb that thinking about the plants rather than alkaloids is a probably more useful approach...ratios of Harmala alkaloids is an oversimplification of what's in a whole plant brew...

Hi DFZ. Pardon my ignorance, I trust that I have credit for a dummy question here. Has it been experienced by anybody that using ascorbic acid or acetic acid alone leads to tangible conversion of harmaline to thh?

Thanks for the bump, I'd missed nen's reply here.

Anyhow, good question - I'm working on it. Need a heads up from Endlessness that the GC column for harmalas has arrived and he'll get my preliminary samples.

Acetic won't convert in the absence of zinc and we're yet to see what the qualitative results of ascorbic reduction are, or whether it works on isolated harmaline as opposed to the crude seed brew which is what my initial samples will be from. professor8's claims are unverified so far but others have made similar claims about something happening that resulted in a change on subjective effects after playing around with adding ascorbic acid and hydrogen peroxide to harmala alkaloids.

Most recently, I've made a percolated brew of raw rue with ascorbic acid then simmered it gently for several hours while bubbling air through the brew. Once again, there was a smoothing of the subjective effects in comparison with a percolated brew that was reduced by boiling without aeration.

This is still a work in (slow) progress. If anyone else wants to join in on this I'm also thinking that microwaving of harmala ascorbates will be worth a shot.