Hooah!

The mere fact that we both read the same paper and get a different understanding of it shows that it totally lies under the control of the court. I will bet you can get 10 judges and they will all interpret the law 10 different unique ways. They may come to the same conclusion, but they will all see their own views hidden in the words of the law. That's human nature. That is why we have lawyers and judges. They must interpret the law as they see fit for the current situation.

It’s unreasonable to outlaw all things that contain DMT because too many things do. Because the interpretation Steve has of that law, the law becomes absurd and cannot be upheld. Of course others will agree with Steve. Steve would make a bad lawyer for BBB. Part of being a lawyer is being able to read between the lines, bend and twist the law to make it fit your client. Put a spin on it. Make it believable. It doesn’t matter if the law was interpreted one way in the past. What matters is how it’s interpreted for this particular case.

Without any doubt: Yes. I am risking it right as we speak, and I will continue even if it will kill me. I can very well understand that it is hard for most people, as most people do indeed need their savings and their career to support themselves and their family. People that do not want to risk this, can easily help on other aspects. One important aspect is to research the possibility to extract from Phalaris and Arundo, to name two of hundreds. That can be done without any big risk.

The most important aspect is, however, that we do not give into what they want - we should not blow this out of proportions and think the end for entheogens is near. This is merely the beginning for entheogens.

There are legal ways to fight back. There are also illegal ways to fight back with no chance of being caught. Legally we can relocate, petition our governments, spread extraction teks, spread accurate information about drugs to the masses, we can start legitimate religions, we can find countries that allow use and set up base there, etc.

Illegally, we can start figuring out ways to extract from new sources. We can pass along MHRB and other precursors via the black market if need be. We can do all sorts of radical things. But don't... cuz its illegal

I agree with just about everything you just said. We'll just have to see how it plays out in court. I really don't have anything else to say to convince you either way.

The only thing I disagree with you on is that you said "it doesn't matter if the law was interpreted one way in the past." Precedent definitely matters. Ultimately, it is the judge and jury's decision, but precedent is extremely powerful in moving the minds of the people, especially judges, extra especially when the precedent was set in the Supreme Court.

Precedent can be changed, but it doesn't happen often. It happens very rarely and it can only be a distant hope, not an expectation that this particular precedent will be overturned.

There was a time in the US when slaves were bought and sold. The law said that people of African decent were sub-human. It also said Native Americans were sub-human so human rights did not apply to them. It took people seeing that this was wrong to get the laws changed.

There was a time after slavery when black people could not visit certain districts, had to ride in the back of the bus, etc. This was THE LAW, and it was 100% WRONG.

Today we have a president of African decent. GOD BLESS AMERICA. America has come a long way.

Just because a law is written does not make the law a valid law. The laws allowing slavery were never valid laws. They were crimes against humanity.

The current DMT laws are no different. They make it illegal to worship God by means of entheogens as the Native Americans have done for hundreds of years. They outlaw being a shaman, having Native American beliefs, and outlaw exploration of ones own mind. These laws are crimes against humanity, crimes against religious freedom, crimes against minorities, and on and on and on. They are not valid laws. Something must be done to fix it.

Legally, most of us on these forums cannot make an effective stand due to helping out SWIM and his use of DMT. We need someone who is perfectly clean to hear our cries and take a stand as they will be much more effective due to their tougher armor. We can keep informing SWIM about how to do the illegal while our clean spokesmen do what is legal.

Amen to that, 69ron and Kartikay! That is exactly what I feel we should be focusing on. Let us show our enemy that we will not accept these invalid laws. We should be attacking this matter in every way imaginable. I propose a sub-forum at the Nexus named something like "What can you do to change?" We need to go together and find solutions for this discrimination. We have so many smart heads here, chemists, other scientists, writers, thinkers, travelers - a large group of exceptionally bright individuals. Let's use that to our advantage!

The bottom line is that all of our brains are ineffective in the grand scheme of things. Simply because we have been blessed by the spice. If we want real social change we will need some people with clean backgrounds to promote our cause.

I agree entirely. Coincidentally, I still haven't used DMT. Really though we just need people who are outstanding members of society who don't publicly admit to any of our community's illegal activities. They don't have to actually never have done DMT. Even if they really haven't, who would believe them? They're arguing for the right to smoke a drug. People are going to suspect them of using it even if there isn't any evidence.

Good point. So either way we are fighting and up-hill battle. I still think a cleaner person would be more effective, however, because when he claims not to have used the spice there will be no chance of the people stumbling across information saying otherwise.

Indeed, our spokespersons should be people with clean backgrounds and ideally being authority figures of some sort. That does not mean that the people who are not as clean, cannot stand in the background! We need all kinds of people, working in every imaginable way.

Feeling positive today... Think of everything we can WIN from this situation!

This is just like a challenging experience. Remember to breathe deeply... we are simply dissolving outdated thoughtforms and integrating ourselves at a social level...

(praying hard)

Much love to everyone. I have to ditto what EveningGlory said--don't give into the fear!

Thats a very nice way of putting it, dissolving outdated thoughtforms.

Very interesting points everyone. The only thing I disagree with is the whole "clean/not clean" issue.

I mean, we need to make clear both to the law and society that:

1) There is nothing wrong with using psychedelics. They are in this planet and we were born here.
2) There is a lot (and I mean A LOT) of scientific evidence showing that substances like 2CB, LSD or MDMA have therapeutic potential.
3) Mushrooms, Peyote, Ayahuasca and several other natural hallucinogens WERE and ARE used in religious/spiritual & collectively and individual contexts.
4) We humans have several neurotransmitters that are both tryptamines and phenethylamines. Our neurochemistry is full of "drugs".
5) Prohibition of psychedelics substances under the pretext that they are harmful to the brain is completely invalid.

Now, some of you guys suggest that someone or several people with no drug experience should (in some manner) represent the movement. I disagree with that. I think that a good strategy (like amor_fati said) is that the ones fighting for legalization should not be, at the moment, extracting or distributing any drug. But to go as far as "no drug experience" I think sends the wrong message to everyone, including us. Black people fought for their freedom. Gay people fought for their freedom. Guess who's next.

Right on with everything you've said, Evening Glory.



Exactly, however, the legal implications of actually posting on the forums and spreading information of this sort need to be addressed, so Kartikay, what do you think? Is furtherance a risk, here?



Absolutely, but going toe-to-toe with current legislation means we're in for an immense struggle. It can start now, it always could, but this is a perfect opportunity with exactly the sort of incentive needed--all thanks in part to the FDA.



There's plenty of clean spokesman out their just waiting for us to wake up. The community needs to go public and show that we're simply not so bad, possibly even of a slightly higher caliber of character than most of the straights. A few shining examples won't cut it, as it's not believable as a cross-section of the culture, but a whole subset of society coming out of the woodwork and showing just how passionate and sincere they feel about these plants could possibly result in a significant paradigm shift. I'm not referring to everyone making the papers and getting airtime, but simply living their lives without fear and speaking freely and doing their part for the struggle.



Even more to the point: I would even contend that its users who voluntarily put it aside to become active who really need to make this happen, as they're the only ones versed enough in the inner workings of the culture and who feel strongly enough to drive the movement and make some headway, considering that hugely important part of their livelihood is at stake. This must be approached with a somewhat libertarian mindset, as we don't want anyone landing behind bars. Do not divulge any information about past activity, keep clear of any potential felonies for the duration of your public involvement, but speak freely and enthusiastically about the community at large, in general. The information you will be offering is, no doubt, already known to the most unsympathetic of entities, but needs to be said in order to appeal to the public. There's nothing shameful and nothing dangerous going on here, this needs to be known.

Active outside supporters of every degree will always be invaluable, however, because it's outsiders that we're really trying to convince; we do need to present examples of how to approach the issue mindfully without being complicit, and plenty of scientists, lawyers, and activists are ready and willing to fill these roles.

Alright, clouds. You win! I change my case. In order to protect the movement we must simply be free from extractions and DMT during our public appearance. Also, I would like to argue against LSD. If I remember correctly, it has been shown to trigger episodes of schizophrenia in people who have had the disease lying dormant. Otherwise, the drug is extremely "healthy." I think that we should focus our energy on DMT in order to be more effective. Too broad of a target can overwhelm the public leaving us with no tangible results.

ALSO: To those publicly speaking out, do NOT incite people to go out and try DMT. That is breaking the law.

Also, we should perhaps try to avoid adopting the "peace, love, and harmony" thing as a central motif. It's nice and should be included, but it doesn't fly so well in America and often serves to alienate it. What does fly is self-empowerment, self-help, and DIY ethic. What also can fly is scientific progress and constitutional and human rights. Individual appeal and the "big picture" are what will win this.

Also, we must promote responsible practice in the matter--basically everything that the community's has been promoting over the years: Set and setting, safe administration, mindful intent, and even nontoxic production (an incredibly important way of severing entheogenic extraction from meth production in the mind of the public. The use of hardware store-bought chemicals will absolutely never win in the public eye).

As a psychologist I can tell you that things just like "glancing/looking" a certain way or "telling" certain things to a potential psychotic or schizophrenic patient can trigger episodes. Saying LSD can possibly trigger episodes (schizo/psycho) in mentally unhealthy people is like saying that is is possible that a boat sinks in the ocean: It can happen, but thats not reason to ban ocean exploration. There is nothing wrong with buying a boat and go sailing, but if your boat is malfunctioning you can potentially sink.

If you want up-to-date information on the subject you can search the work of David Nichols (chemist) and his son Charles Nichols (a geneticist), they have worked extensively on this specific issues about "LSD mutations" and "LSD triggering episodes", also "Flashbacks".

Here is a Charles Nichols (1/3) interview you might be interested in listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C03JgYogiM

Thanks for the resource. I'll definitely start looking into it. Interesting analogy regarding the boat. But do you think we should also push for LSD legalization or just DMT legalization?