And yes, clouds, it is completely ridiculous. By this definition, we can't really eat anything, or even swallow our own saliva. We can legally possess food containing DMT, and possess our own saliva and other bodily fluids, but as soon as we intend to ingest or distribute them, we are entering illegal territory. Blood transfusions are apparently illegal. Take care at the meat or veggie section of your local grocery, because its illegal for them to sell anything there and for you to eat any of it.

I'm not incredibly well-versed in law, but if a law could potentially be interpreted in that way by a lawyer, and considering the nature of the law and the case, wouldn't it be conceivable that a midwestern judge would interpret it thusly?


It's really looking like the endogenous card is going to have to come out for this case if DMT-containing plants really come into question.

Who would have thought that accidentaly spitting in someone's face is not only a huge disrespect but also a drug-related felony?

My understanding of US law is that it is not intention to ingest that is illegal, but intention to ingest to achieve a 'high' that is illegal. Am I mistaken here?

As for the discussion about if these plants are legal or not, I feel the law is absolutely crystal clear. These plants are indeed illegal to distribute, as they beyond any doubt are containers of DMT, which is scheduled.

My understanding is that K2 was the reason behind the raid, which is not surprising. To be honest, no one else than BBB itself can be blamed, when the company sells a Cannabis mimic as a smoking mixture. Then it is sold with the intention to ingest. It is sad to see sacred entheogens offered together with synthetic compounds, and this does really (as proven by this case) hurt our case to an extreme degree. I hope other vendors learn from BBB's mistakes, for the sake of these sacred plants and our use of them!

I do not mean to rain on anyone's parade, but, that is quite a stretch. The amounts in our bodies are so ridiculously small that extraction would be impractical. I do not think that we should be trying to draw lines between the DMT in our bodies and the DMT in plants commonly used for extraction. The courts will not buy it.

This steve sounds confused on the law. Many DMT containing flora and fauna (actually just the toad to my knowledge) are sold. I was always under the impression that it mattered what it was being sold as.

Now if BBB was extracting DMT on site....Then they are fools and may have cost all of us a lot with this one. Hopefully other suppliers will be more careful with wording and their actions. This case upsets me. I was checking dosenation on my phone while eating a continental breakfast at a hotel. I erupted with a "What kind of shit is that!". Everyone looked at me and I must have looked like a madman. I am still fuming over this.

It's just speculation since they did take all the K2 from a headshop recently with not many other charges. You tell me I guess. I don't know why they bothered with that raid if they're not going to be charging her?
http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2010/02/federal_raid_shuts_down_lawrence_shop_that_sells_k2.php

It seems as though the K2 was not the only reason. BBB was inciting consumption of many of the products they sell. Please explain to me how this is not incitement:
http://www.manifestingthemind.com/

We are just talking about percentages here. As Kartikay said, there is no law statement making it clear how much DMT it is illegal to ingest, so it is the same for Mimosa as for Saliva or grass in my garden or anything. Unless the law establishes percentages, its completely ridiculous.

And evening glory, if I ingest Saliva expecting to get high, then... am I really committing a crime?

Is there really DMT in people? Not splitting hairs here, I am just curious. I remember from The Spirit Molecule some discusion of such, but thought it was Dr. Strassman's theory. One which he tried to prove by checking some human pineal glands, but when he couldn't detect any DMT he theorized maybe they hadn't been removed close enough to the persons death.

Is there really DMT in me (besides the stuff I add)?

Pokey the Schedule 1 Factory

Without me being very familiar with US laws, I would say that yes - you would according to my understanding of the law commit a crime if you ingest saliva containing a scheduled substance, with the intention to get high. If you would get convicted is a whole other story. This is nonetheless not even remotely relevant to the BBB case.

That is definitely understandable. So it is arguable that the law is too vague. Because of that, the DMT charges could be thrown out. However, you would still have to deal with the K2 which was advertised as a smoking blend. And that is back to square one with everyone mentioning the FDAs reasoning for the raid was the K2. Thanks for the clarification.

It does not matter if the laws on DMT are not good enough or updated enough to our current understanding of this substance. What matters, is that DMT is scheduled, together with anything containing DMT. It is sadly up to the prosecutors how they want to enforce the law, and therefore what products they want to attack. It is certainly illegal to distribute DMT containing dried plants, and if the state chooses to act on this, there is not really much to do except hope for a plea bargain. The illegality of plants containing DMT has even been established by the supreme court in cases where our side won the right to ingest them. It is beyond any doubt that this is how the law is.

On this, you are unfortunately mistaken. There is no distinction between "intent to ingest" and "intent to ingest to get high" in the law.


Right, and the same goes for the plants he was selling that contain mescaline and LSA.


Well, K2 couldn't be the reason for the raid. I tried to address this in a previous post. K2 is not illegal, even for human consumption. K2 is also not on the list of charges against Jonathan Sloan. If the FDA wanted to address the issue of K2, they would have waited until after the Kansas state legislature finished making it illegal. The fact that they did not wait can only mean that K2 was not the cause for the raid. Even if Kansas makes it illegal now, the FDA still can't charge Jonathan with intent to distribute. US law prevents us from being charged unless the activity was illegal when it was committed. In this case, it was not.

Now, if something is sold for human consumption, then the FDA has the right to regulate it. They can force him to stop selling it while they come up with a way to regulate it, but they can't charge him for any crime unless they told him to stop and he did not comply. I don't think this was the case because there are no such charges against him.



While I completely understand why you would think this is a stretch, it is not. This is exactly the type of technicality that comes up in court cases all the time. Regardless of how ridiculous this law is, it is the law. It will be treated as law. This particular absurdity in the law will probably be enough to force legislators to address the issue soon. I worry, though, that they will find a way to change the wording so that it no longer includes common foods and our own body but still includes things like MHRB. Until then, it is quite literally illegal for us to do these things. You're right, you won't be charged for it, but eventually some up-and-coming politician or lawyer is going to start a case exactly like this, just to bring the issue into question.

If DMT is scheduled, therefore illegal in any form, then what is all of the disagreement about?

Why yes, Pokey, there is! Here's the quote from DMT: The Spirit Molecule.


To be fair, that last bit: "discovered the pathways... by which the human body made DMT" is not accurate. We still don't have solid evidence that the pineal gland produces DMT. It would be more accurate to say"...by which the human body uses DMT." But I've looked up the rest of his references, and they're accurate.

You know what's really funny about that? I couldn't check my copy of the spirit molecule because my mom (i'm 38, she's sixty something) saw it on the shelf in my ofiice yesterday, thought it looked pretty cool, and borrowed it!

Well, I thought it was funny.....


Pokey the Perpetually Amused

I think the disagreement is rapidly dissipating. We were all confused about the technical aspects of the law at first, and thus there was disagreement. Steve Beyer's posts in the Ayahuasca Forums cleared up just about every misconception that we had.

69ron seems to believe that the law is not clear enough, and that it only applies to materials that have had scheduled substances added to them. However, the CSA is not at all worded like that. I addressed that concern to my own satisfaction, but if anyone disagrees, then I guess we'll just have to wait until the case plays out to see how the law is interpreted.

I want to raise awareness on what I feel is the most important aspect of this: The real reason behind this raid, can not be interpreted as something else than the intention to create fear in the entheogenic community. Fear is the key to limit our possibilities to be free individuals. Just look at how anything else is sold to the public, what emotion is passed on? Yes, you guessed correctly; fear.

Now, what do we do with this knowledge? We simply do not give them what they want. We do not show any fear. Do not think this is the end for DMT or any other entheogen. By thinking so, you will act so, and then, create that to be reality. Focus on supporting the vendors that do not give into the fear-mongering. Focus on cultivating your own botanicals. Focus on finding new sources in our nature. And last, but not least, focus on changing the world and it's laws to the better. We should all support BBB, even if we (as I) did not like the business and it's profile. We should support the liberalization of entheogens in every possible way.

The enemy has attacked us. What do we do, do we run into hiding? No, we attack back!

It is undoubtedly easier said than done. Are you truly willing to risk your savings and your career?