In my experience it's even the other way around. Smoking marijuana turns a lot of people into smoking tobacco. All my friends who smoke got into smoking cigarettes because they used to smoke weed blended with tobacco, the weed was first later came the tobacco. I also see it a lot of times when going out into town and in high schools, young people start smoking weed and then later turn to cigs since the tobacco in the joints got them hooked.

Mind though that I life in The Netherlands where weed is semi-legal and mostly smoked in a tobacco blended joint.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

There's a lot out there that should be of concern to the tobacco industry. I smoke every once in a while, and to fill my pipe I almost never buy outside of the bulk herb section at the farmer's co-op, although I do grow a few legal smoking herbs to supplement. I sure as hell didn't start with tobacco, and although I've tried it there are an absurd number of things out there which, in my opinion, work as much, much more pleasant alternatives in effect, physical toll, taste, and price.

Hmm... this thread might lead to an anti-big tobacco campaign. That is, a campaign with no herbal enemy for big tobacco to phsyically combat. Since K2 was the threat, K2 got taken down. What if the threat was mint? Or mullein? Or passionflower? Or wormwood? Or all four, and more, the concept that you can smoke so many things instead of tobacco. An anti-tobacco campaign aimed at smokers, not at non-smokers. Then, maybe, as soon as the idea of herbal smoking is more accepted, the political field would be better cleared for the reintroduction of cannabis and the like. Any thoughts on that?

btw, more info on their own forum.. apparently the owner is released on bail, check last post:

http://www.dancingbearbo.../index.php?topic=1451.45

Traveler, in the US most smoking mixtures are tobacco free. Most people here do not want tobacco present in their smoking mixtures. That’s the reason the K2 formulation contains no tobacco. It would be stronger and more addictive if tobacco was added. That would increase sales of it if people didn’t mind tobacco in their smoke, but a lot of people in the US using herbal smoking blends want a healthier smoke and don’t like any cancer causing tobacco present at all. There’s an anti-tobacco movement in the US among the younger crowd and things like K2 are helping it succeed.

a foaf while researching for dissertation on trans-genetic rapeseed, came across a list of former top employees of monsanto(GMO giant multi-national corp. currently leading the charge at wrecking the earth) who have been shoed into top positions at the FDA. i would assume monsanto paid better!
\
dont worry, and please don't be afraid.
we're going to win.

maybe instead of defending our right to import exotic plants, we should search high and low for new, abundant sources closer to home.?.
i just know there are many discoveries to be made.
cheers

Biopsylo, thanks for posting that. Monsanto is a scary company that produces all kinds of crap: genetically engineered seeds, toxic herbicides, etc. Not good at all. The FDA is so corrupt!

69ron, you are just playing games now I will take you seriously again when you stop it. You are acting in the same way as the tobacco companies pretending they arent promoting their cigarettes to children. It is dishonest.

BBB dont just sell seeds they sell root bark and vine cuttings that isnt for propagation, 69ron.

This is what you said in this thread.



I know what entheogen means it isnt about growing flowers in your garden. Admit that.

Anyway it is just my opinion and I am entitled to it that they are knowingly taking money from people by selling them plants for illicit use. I dont have to prove it to you.

In the US it is not as popular to add tobacco to pot as in europe but some do it, I agree with traveler and think that smoking pot may also reinforce the smoking fixation it likely goes both ways though.

Ron I think you may be confused on what K2 is. K2 is a synethic cannabinoid smoke blend it is not some natural mix of herbs or an alternative tobacco product. Also I don't know where you are but plenty of people are still smoking cigarettes in the US. I don't know about this young movement and know plenty of young people although smoking has gone down. K2 is used by people looking for a legal marijuana high not a healthy alternative smoke. These smokes are way more expensive than cigarettes many as as or more expensive than marijuana.

Tobacco is a well established herb that has been popularly for centuries. It is well established into society. At the time of "the drug laws" in the US it was not considered a drug and its adverse health effects were unknown.

I agree that the FDA is corrupt and in some ways takes money from the tobacco lobby, but to keep tobaco available not to make anything else that could be smoked illegal.

The surveys and second hand accounts of people choosing herbs over tobacco are hear-say. I know of many people who stopped smoking pot and continued cigarettes as well as many whom do both as I know you do as well. Tobacco is legal because there is a huge lobby to keep it legal. I am glad it is legal even if it does cause cancer it is your right to decide what you can and can't ingest. Information should be available but no laws regarding personal use.

Smoking is huge through-out the entire world it is not going anywhere. Although in the US knowledge of cancer has decreased the rate of use to some degree it is still widely used and a billion dollar industry worldwide. Plenty of things that are carcinogenic are legal. Don't think for a second that drugs are ILLEGAl because of health issues. The point is the gov can make more money off of drugs being illegal than them being legal (this is a fact) however the people do not benefit but the "law-making prohibition industry does".

The fact is that K2 has synthetic cannabinoids in it that gets you high. That is why it was targeted jut like all other intoxicants that see somewhat wide use. Do you think big tobacco was after ecstasy, 5-MeO-DMT, or no was it big alcohol? There are thousands of herbal smoke blends widely available and widely used. However they don't get you high so law enforcement doesn't give a shit. Do you honestly think that there are a bunch of old men in a room watching all the new herbal smoke blends thinking how can we make this one illegal.... that is naive. It would be a waste of time for them because these things are no threat at all and it is conspiracy theory stuff. It was the prohibitionists behind this one, the prohibition industry is far larger than the tobacco industry.

If anything the tobacco companies would love to have a new "safer" product to market. Rather than making a ban they would buy them out or offer their own form and with widespread marketing would succeed in destroying the smaller companies. I would be shocked if the tobacco companies even knew what K2 was. Salvia is legal in most states and throughout the world and posses no threat to tobacco use. Salvia was made illegal in some states because it got people high not because you can smoke it. You can smoke any herb. Tobacco offers an intoxication something totally different than salvia or K2.

00, BBB isn't responsible for irresponsible actions taken by clients. There is no evidence that would hold in court that their intent is for human consumption, which is what 69ron meant, I'm sure. BBB and businesses like it support entheogen-using communities indirectly and it is rather unnerving that you're attacking it. They are a business, so they make money, but regardless they are an asset and an ally.

I get what you're saying, but I have to nitpick on your terminology here... "illicit use"? Illicit means illegal. It is not illegal to take entheogens religiously because of the freedom of religion that Americans are meant to enjoy. It is the law makers and enforcers who are acting illegally in this case.

(Even the few who might buy BBB's products just to get high are not really doing anything truly illegal, because to deny them this is an infringement of their human rights (/natural/moral/unalienable rights) which have moral priority over any other law. Hitler made laws, Stalin made laws, Bush made laws. Nobody made human rights, they are logical and universal laws outside and above any cultural and political context.)

On the Ayahuasca forum in the Legal Issues section there is an interesting thread called "Bouncing Bear Raided." There is an attorney discussing his ideas and opinions on this case. I think you'll find it enlightening to read an expert's thoughts on this topic. The poster's name is Steve Beyer. Check it out, it'll dispel a lot of the confusion that we have here.

Yeah I'm not really speaking in a strictly 'legal' context like a lawyer would, but in an ethical one, which I consider above law.
Please could you provide a link, it'll save a lot of people having to search around for it?

Here is the mentioned thread.

Nice point, bufoman, about the prohibitionists. I really like the idea of picking on the Man, it's a little bit easier to think about doing than effecting legislature that is adverse to many people's views... that's hard...
However, were upset Kansians the ones who got the FDA to do the raid? I honestly doubt the FDA was doing it purely out of the goodness of their heart, or because they sympathized with said upset Kansians. This was a little too audacious, I would NOT be surprised if some money changed hands.

Sorry, I just cant feel too sorry for them. They chose to take the risks they did and cant have any complaints now about what happened.

But if the warrant was for something unrelated, and that wasn't even a banned substance
at the time the warrant was signed by the judge, then there's no way it can stand up.
This case shouldn't even make it through the Grand Jury. I think what they're really after
is negative publicity against ethnobotanical suppliers, and to scare all the middle aged
white republican mothers in this country into begging for them to be scheduled.

I think the FDA can step in to "save" the public from "dangerous" food and drugs if they deem that the food or drug can cause damage. The food or drug does not need to be scheduled for them to get a warrant. This is probably why the FDA was used rather than the DEA. Imagine that I operated a factory that manufactured chocolate that was poisoning people, the chocolate wouldn't need to be illegal in order for them to come busting down doors. If it was intended for human consumption, it is under their jurisdiction.

Thanks, if anyone has an account on BBB's forum it would be really nice to mention that link to him in his thread http://www.dancingbearbo.../index.php?topic=1451.45 His lawyer might need all the ideas he can get, and there's some free advice from at least one lawyer there. Post if you do it so people know it's done!

And you could say the same for every drug-felon behind bars, does this make it right? This is the sort of rhetoric that makes prohibition tolerable to the populace.



This is exactly what's likely happening on the surface. The FDA's case is precisely on business practices, which BBB unfortunately neglected to safeguard. However, with all the other charges they're attempting to pin on them, don't be surprised if the DEA isn't too far behind. Smells like another Operation Web Tryp in the works, and if the community doesn't adapt, it will suffer great losses that may not be so easily recovered.

The FDA should not be able to convict them under the Analog Act simply because a plant does not resemble an illegal drug. The Analog Act simply outlaws chemicals (not plants) that resemble a drug's chemical make-up to be sold for human consumption. I could see that BBB was selling the plants to be used for human consumption due to the forums on their site, but they were not selling chemicals, and the plants they do sell are clearly labeled as not being for human consumption. But that's exactly what happened during Operation Web Tryp; they weren't selling analog chemicals but instead were selling the ingredients to produce a drug and telling people how to do it on forums. That is what BBB is doing. They crossed the line by setting up their forum which openly discussed drug use and probably discussed extraction techniques on other forums. That is the nail in their coffin.