Hesitant to even post this, still shaken up from the experience and not fully out of it. Have taken rue so many times and never experienced anything close to this. I took red vine (muricata) and had an experience which I thought was like rue, it had a kind of harmaline vibe to it but a bit different than rue. Purged and was tremoring on the floor. The experience itself was interesting but the real fun came more than a week later. I feel like I lost my mind. Didn't even think the caapi could be that intense or cause that with no DMT in it when I took it. I brewed only red vine with no DMT. Started noticing I felt like I was tripping a bit a full week later. 10 days later now and at about day 7 I started going through a feeling similar to after strong tryptamine experiences where it feels like you're relearning how to live. Still feeling that way. I felt like I saw something higher poke through. I think it's through now. Sharp emotional pain in a feeling of madness. Saw some of all the fucked up stuff in the world and felt like the reason this truth is hidden is maybe because it's so scary. Nobody wants to hear it. It's a hard pill to swallow that can be harmful if you don't do it carefully. At the same time it was important to acknowledge it. I saw the monster within myself. But also saw that monster is within everyone and to deny it or shut it down completely is not how you live. We have to learn how to live peacefully with it and if we are able to we can live in a more efficient mode for ourselves and our world. Everybody has a primal monster inside themselves that controls them to some degree. If you can't live peacefully with it then maybe it's better not to see it or live in denial like I was for years. Because that monster can also destroy things. Yourself and others.

Supposedly very similar chemicals in rue vs caapi, or even different strains of caapi. Taken yellow brew and extract and nothing close to this. I ended up pouring the rest out when I was so scared. I don't know if I am going to take red vine again. I took about 50g I think. I think there must be something deeper going on other than just harmaline and harmine. Something in caapi. Has anyone else experienced this or has had any other red vine experiences?

I can't speak specifically to Muricata, but your wording here is certainly reminiscent of Shadow work. This presentation by Ann Shulgin could be helpful in understanding and integrating this experience.

I'm sure someone here can say more about this, but my understanding was that Banisteriopsis Muricata is not the same plant as Banisteriopsis Caapi (Ayahuasca vine), and effectively not the same plant as a "red" variety of b. caapi. If that is indeed the case then your sense of there being something else at play besides harmine and harmaline is probably spot on.

As for the experience you had, it makes me think that recognizing and acknowledging the human capacity for evil is perhaps no less important than holding the view of basic goodness, primordial mind, or buddha nature. Fixating on either side of the equation makes for an incomplete view of life. Such one-sided belief systems account for Christian fundamentalism, on the one hand, and new-age spiritualties that turn a blind eye to the dark side, so to speak, on the other.

In my understanding of the view of Tibetan Buddhism, relative truth and ultimate truth are inseparable. The human capacity for evil, in this example, would be relative truth, while basic goodness would be the underlying, absolute truth of human existence that can be uncovered and glimpsed with psychedelics.

Personally, I find the dialectical view of relative evil coexisting with ultimate goodness to be helpful in terms of motivating me to take my shadow side (and the shadow of others) seriously, while giving me a sense of faith in the fundamental (often obscured) goodness of human nature.

It brings to mind this song, which I think is relevant to the conversation...

I have had some dark trips that lasted long beyond the trip itself on mushrooms, lsd, ecstacy, etc. I believe there is darkness in this world and that it is likely on multiple dimensions. Not a huge surprise given the things going on here. Doesn't mean it's not possible to rise above it though.

Wanted to make sure to message you because I've had bad trips turn into psychotic episodes before, meaning hallucinating with no drugs. That led to psychotic episodes being caused just by stress at later times. I've checked directly into ER before. Sometimes it is worth getting on an antipsychotic if you are having hallucinations that won't stop - just wanted to make you aware of this option as a last resort if you are having serious trouble.

It has worked out ok for me. My perspective is probably different than others though because I take the psychedelics at face value rather than try to translate them. Who says you aren't supposed to have the sh*$ scared out of you? Who says you aren't supposed to drastically change the way you think and live? I don't think shamans in the Amazon are explaining away their visions as Jungian psychology. Since I started treating my trips with more curiosity and an open mind my life has gotten a lot better and more interesting.

Please feel free to reach out if you want to discuss any of this.

Thanks guys I feel almost better now.

It's been a week I think? Two weeks? I can't even remember when I did it at this point. And I can still taste the red vine in my mouth... This numb kind of taste. I did drink a little bit of yellow cause I thought that might help but never had that same taste or effect. Don't think I will drink any more of that. I think I experienced a full on psychotic break. It's coming in waves. Anyone had an experience like this before with red vine?

I never had red vine but like the previous speakers said, there is a certain possibility of drug induced shadow work. I have seen a lot of people going through this, was it
with mushrooms, lsd or ketamine.

I think it would be appreciated to stop psychedelics for a while, work on your issues and come back later (with another Caapi strain if this can help you to don't get in prejudice mood).

A friend of mine get in some serious issues after drinking ayahuasca, like there was a dark spirit upon her, and she liberated it with absence of drugs for a while and work with a healer from the umbanda sisterhood. But this wasn't a walk in the garden at all, at all.

She felt like almost possessed. These kind of things can come up quickly, and I never stop saying how important it is to "close" it's own body. Nevermind everybody could become the instrument of a malveillant spirit one time or another.

Maybe try to see someone "sensitive" to see how this shadow affects your daily life and work on it! It could be a chance too, to gain better understanding of your self, your future and your past!

But for me, this game we are struggling with isn't really a game - there is a lot of opportunities to get on serious health issues but the other way is true also : you can heal yourself...

I ate some shrooms now I feel better.

So the whole thing was like you got to release your monster to heal and get better. I needed strength because I fought so hard and was weak. But I still wasn't ready for more strength because I knew it would corrupt me. You can only release your monster when you're ready. It's easy to release pure strength but the problem is you need great precision to have it be a good thing. Elon Musk is one example of a monster. Another example is a murderer. One is easier to perform than the other.

You need to restrain and focus your monster with morality and logic but that's actually difficult to do. And we all have that power in us but our brain and body only uses like 10% of its power at any time. (Don't know if that's exactly correct but you get the point) We have limiters for a reason. To protect the tribe and ourselves.

Sorry for your difficulty, mooai. I think one of the most effective safety precautions one can take is to ally a certain plant which trust has been rooted, and do explorations with other plants sparsely and very carefully. Also no entheogenic plant is like a medication to take everyday, imho. The "spiritual gains" from microdosing might appear attractive but are superficial on the scale of the path of the spiritual seeker, imho. I cannot take rue without ritual. It's damaging to me in that way.

I for one do consume Rue/Harmalas on a regular/daily basis as a medicine for months on end, i've been consuming Rue pretty regularly since 2012, with some breaks here and there. The first few years of working with Rue, i wouldn't have dared to treat it more like a functional medication, but it seems that over time, and especially with regular consumption causing the side effects to go away, it is more like a functional medication to me now, i've drove on it perfectly fine, i function on it just fine, and i take pretty hefty dosages too, like i'll take say 4 grams of raw Rue or 5 gram of the dark roast, and just keep taking that same dosage and letting the reverse tolerance build up causing it to get stronger and stronger each time, eventually when the side effects go away it does become more like a functional medicine and feels cleaner/clearer, ime.

I think there's different avenues to explore with plant medicines, ritual and ceremony and such is good, but there's other ways to wisely/responsibly explore/use/consume these plant medicines imo. Plus i mean, there are health benefits to consuming Harmalas, and i haven't noticed any health detriments that i'm aware of, they've helped me out a lot as a natural anti-depressant.

I just wanted to thank you for this post, dreamoar. My wife’s and my childhood traumas recently interplayed in a manner that had me struggling with suicidal thoughts as a means of escape from the pain I was feeling. Your rather synchronous reminder of our old friend Carl’s work, has given me the requisite tools to regain a rationally anchored center

So yeah guys use care when taking Red vine/Muricata (Vendor sold as Red caapi, but packaging might have said Muricata I can't remember).

Took it on the 3rd of December I think, the 28th now. Small dose or so I thought (about 50g I think) and I felt dissociated for like a month. Starting to feel normal again now. Never had anything like this happen from many high dose trips with a variety of compounds. Reminiscent of K the type of fantasy realm I was in. Was out to lunch imagining these abstract scenarios unable to pull myself out of it even when talking with people.

Part of it was similar to the afterglow I have gotten from yellow caapi. Had the stimulated excited peaceful type of feeling. But the prominent effect was this mostly dissociated feeling which I have not gotten from caapi afterglows.

Good experience but suuuper strong. Just going to stick with Banisteriopsis Caapi for now. Got what I needed from that.

Will post more here about the effects of different vines... In terms of other caapi varieties I have tried a couple different types of yellow, white, and cielo. They all (even red) have a lot of similarities and overlaps... Almost all seem to give this distinct stimulated/peaceful feeling in the afterglow.

Red is quite different from any harmala I've ever done. Not the same plant as caapi I think so that makes sense. Afterglow with some dissociative effects for a month, reduced my productivity for that time so I don't think I'm going to do that again. I think it was a good experience though. I'd consider microdosing it.

White did not particularly stand out to me. I only did about 50gs I think. Didn't feel much of an effect. Maybe some afterglow and slight consciousness change during the experience. Have heard of others having good effect from white so maybe mine was weak.

Cielo is interesting, just got done microdosing that for like a month. Much more bitter harmaline type of taste though not as strong as rue. It has a very stimulating type of feeling kind of similar to how rue can feel with regular use. Makes me feel very turned on honestly, interesting effect. Very intense sexual feelings especially when out and about. I don't so much feel like continuing to dose this variety for this reason... At least the regular microdosing at the dosages and frequency I was taking it. It's quite a prominent effect that can be distracting or even anxiety inducing. Gets me worked up. Though I do like the effect in another way. May be better to do one large dose and not take it for a while.

Yellow I think is my favorite. Apparently cielo is also yellow but there is a type of yellow I get which does not have a bitter harmaline type taste. It gives a very mild relaxing experience that is nonetheless very pleasant. Makes me sleepy, relaxed, meditative. Afterglow is also very subtle but very good. I think cielo and red are beneficial but not something I would want to do all the time at least in bigger doses. This yellow I could probably drink all the time it feels so amicable to my body.

Also was doing yellow extract goo I was purchasing from a vendor for a while, but I don't feel it had anywhere near the effect of boiling it yourself. I wonder if some chemicals might be lost in the gooifying process there.

Edit: Another note I have from experimenting a bit is I think that one large dose is different than a number of smaller doses, it seems like 100g is not equal to 10g taken 10 times. Have to experiment some more but that's what it seems like to me. The larger dose all at once seems to be more effective and induce more mental change. This makes sense to me for something like shrooms, where I see the value as more of a strong emotionally moving experience which can cause a change in perspective, 50 or even 100 giggly 0.1g microdoses I don't think would be equivalent to a 5g experience in terms of how it affects you as a person. With caapi I was thinking it may be more of a case of boosting certain brain chemicals where 100g is the same no matter how many times you split it but maybe that's not the case. I don't understand its mechanism as well as I think I do shrooms.