No, post 560 was about how to dry the bulk crystals in the filter by squeezing them (and the filter) in a paper towel.

I don't understand the concern when finally evaporating the EA in the jar. After 3-4 rinses of the jar with fresh EA, no noticable plant matter or citric acid should be left: almost all of it should have been rinsed out. Or am I miss understanding? FYI, I send these rinses through the filter to push away any off-colors of the bulk product there.

Loveall,

Ok, yep, I start drying the filtrate the same way, let EA drain, put between paper towel layers, when no visible moisture on filter let filter and crystals air dry 24 hrs.

Regarding the stuff that evaporates from water washing, I apologize for the confusion. I was originally discussing one of the potential causes for the brown, sticky stuff (inadequate washing of the crystallization jar), then confused it all. I now rinse the hell out of the jar with fresh EA, as you mentioned, and the water wash evaporates to look like this attachment.

Hi Loveall and Cheelin,

I am consistently getting white/needle in my filter.

However my evaporate is consistently a yellow or brown sticky crystal.

I add fresh EA to my mason jar and shake the hell out of it, 3x. The first wash pulls some color, and the second and third wash are clear. Still, when I evaporate it turns out as yellow/brown. I think that the crystals in the jar are sticking to the walls and trapping some yellow/brown that cannot be easily washed with the EA. I suspect that if I were to first scrape the mason jar (which is difficult) that another rinse of EA might get some more color out. Also perhaps after I evaporate I could do another rinse with EA. I haven't tried that yet.

I think your intial paste is too watery based on your description. If I where you I would add water to the cactus slowly giving lime time to react (different than the current TEK). Go for a paste that is moist throughtout and fluffy, then stop adding water.

We started with 69ron ratios, but that may be too wet for CIELO, especially for variable starting plant material. I don't think we optimized that parameter at all, and it could be very important in this TEK. There could be a lot of upside/robustness to lowering the water amount and/or changing the TEK to specify tje paste consistency instead of a fixed amount of water for all plat sources.

People with goo problems in this thread have reported that their issue was too much initial water.

If you see a marked improvement, we can update the TEK. I agree with Cheelin that the TEK options may not be very helpful, especially if the intial paste is made correctly and without too much water.

HLP, white crystals, needles or snowflakes, are a signal that you are nailing the process. Dark, sticky crap in the evaporate is a sign that there is still room for improvement.

Since you are doing what sounds like a good job washing the crystallization jar with fresh EA, I doubt that that is where your discoloration is coming from. But just in case, make sure you allow your jar to thoroughly dry before doing the water wash.

It seems to me that some amount of off-white/light yellowish discoloration may be related to parent material. But, the brown, sticky is, imo, directly related to lower quality processing technique.

I believe my results went from crap to goodness for 3 main reasons, all related to what Loveall calls “purposefulness”:

1. Better pastemaking, focused on trying to get as much contact between the cactus powder and the lime, using uniformity of paste texture and color as my guide.

I believe Shroombee’s suggestion to thoroughly mix powder & lime before adding the water is an improvement of the tek, for those trying to improve the quality of their product. Yield is slightly lower than mixing the lime and water first, but so close that random variation may explain the difference. See post 543. This method will also allow for Loveall’s suggested water amount adjustments, depending on parent material. When using this dry-mix approach, the color differences between the powder and the lime make it clearly obvious when mixing is insufficient. After mixing with the water, if the paste becomes dough-like, the 8 minutes of mixing becomes more like 8 minutes of mashing potatoes with the back of a spoon. I mash all areas of the paste, fold it in half, mash again, repeat without a break for the entire mixing period, then let it rest in my french press for 10 minutes, before starting the pulls..

2. Better pulling, focused on trying to get every particle wet with solvent during the 1 minute stir; in order to give the solvent the maximum opportunity, during the rest, to soak into each particle and extract its goodness.

Specifically: if the paste is not crumbly, I attempt to break it up with my spoon into, at most, 1/2” chunks, BEFORE adding any solvent (sometimes the paste doesn’t want to break into separate chunks, I do the best I can, it makes a difference). The first solvent addition is somewhat larger than the other 5, just because the paste absorbs so much during the first pull (check back to my recipe to calc the % of total solvent I used for each pull, and then use these %s to calc the specific additions based on your batch size). For each pull, I stir 80 revolutions for the 1 minute stir, then let the material rest 2 minutes, then pour out liquid until it drips at less than 1 drop per second Into collection filter-funnel into a dry jar (water, of any amount, in contact with the solvent, is my enemy), then immediately start the next pull cycle. The first pull doesn’t mix to smoothness, yields hardly any liquid, and what does come out appears to be the darkest. Each subsequent pull makes smoother material, yields more liquid, which appears to be a somewhat lighter shade. After draining the free-flowing liquid from final pull, I unscrew the filtering mechanism on the french press plunger, re-insert it into the canister, and apply maximum pressure to the filtering mechanism with a spoon to squeeze out the maximum amount of liquid; I squeeze and drain several times until the liquid stops coming out at a rate greater than 1 drop per second. Because I am draining through a filter into the collection jar, any large particles that inadvertently come out of the press are caught. I don’t worry about tiny particles, that is what the next step is intended to do. I recover 90+% of the solvent used in the pulls; I mentioned in my 12-run experiment an easy way to check it, that does not require directly measuring the individual pulls, See post 497.

3. Crystal-, AND I MEAN, Crystal-Clear filtering of the pulled liquid is necessary before salting. It helps the crystallization process and keeps unwanted particles out of the final washes.

Specifically, once all my pull’s are in the collection jar, I filter the liquid into another dry jar, letting it settle absolutely undisturbed for 1 hour. Then I shine a flashlight through it, if there is ANY hint of cloudiness and/or a sediment layer, I carefully decant the liquid jar (leaving any sediment behind), and pour through a clean filter into a dry jar. If necessary, I repeat the 1 hour settling and filtering cycle until no hint of cloudiness or sediment is observed. Then, using a dry jar that will hold twice the volume of the collected pull liquid, I stack 2 new filters in the funnel on the jar, pour the pull liquid into the jar, and add the citric acid, stirring once with a clean and dry spoon, then I cover the jar and store undisturbed for the crystallization period.

200mg crosses the threshold.

“Dry mix” experiment done, see post 543.

A small-scale, 24-run experiment to evaluate standard process vs treatment options, using 3 salting/crystallization methods.

Using a single powdered material, which vendor describes as “San Pedro Ecuador, T. pachanoi…100% flesh, no spines, no core”.

Salting/Crystallization Methods:
A. Low Citric, Passive Crystallization: 0.75g citric acid, single stir, 56 hour rest
B. Low Citric, Active Crystallization: 0.75g citric acid, 20 minute magnetic stirring, 24 hour rest
C. High Citric, Active Crystallization: 2.25g citric acid, 20 minute magnetic stirring, 24 hour rest

Treatments (refer to detailed method in posts 497 & 566):
I,0,0,0,1 - individual paste, wet mixed, no microwave, no chilling, each run stirred 1 minute then rested 2 minutes
B,0,0,0,1 - bulk paste, wet mixed, no microwave, no chilling, each run stirred 1 minute then rested 2 minutes
B,1,0,0,1 - bulk paste, dry mixed, no microwave, no chilling, each run stirred 1 minute then rested 2 minutes
B,0,1,0,1 - bulk paste, wet mixed, microwaved paste, no chilling, each run stirred 1 minute then rested 2 minutes
B,0,0,1,0 - bulk paste, wet mixed, no microwave, chilled solvent & paste, each run stirred 1 minute but not rested
B,0,0,1,1 - bulk paste, wet mixed, no microwave, chilled solvent & paste, each run stirred 1 minute then rested 2 minutes
B,0,1,1,0 - bulk paste, wet mixed, microwaved paste, chilled solvent & paste, each run stirred 1 minute but not rested
B,0,1,1,1 - bulk paste, wet mixed, microwaved paste, chilled solvent & paste, each run stirred 1 minute then rested 2 minutes

The first 3 treatments are slight variations of what I refer to as the “standard process”, involving slight changes in the initial preparation of the paste ingredients.

Individual Paste: paste runs made from individual 15g batches of material
Bulk Paste: paste runs made from 45g batches of material, divided into 3 equal-weight runs after 10 minute rest or after microwaving in the case of microwaved treatments
Wet mix paste: mix lime & water, them mix powder in for 8 minutes, let rest 10 minutes
Dry mix paste: mix lime and powder, then mix water in for 8 minutes, let rest 10 minutes
Microwaved paste: after resting paste, microwave paste until 2/3 of added water has evaporated
Chilled solvent & paste: prior to pulling, chill solvent in freezer for 24 hours, chill paste in fridge for 24 hours

Bulk Batch Ingredients:
Material - 45g (~9% moisture content)
Pickling lime - 11.25g (~3% moisture content)
Distilled water - 135mL

Individual Batch Ingredients:
Material - 15g (~9% moisture content)
Pickling lime - 3.75g (~3% moisture content)
Distilled water - 45g

Fresh ethyl acetate volume per pull:
1st pull - 30mL
Pulls 2 to 6 - 22 mL each


Results:
The 1st pic shows representative samples of products produced in all runs, using salting methods A, B, C. Each product from each run was also tasted, from a flavor/perception perspective all product, regardless of pastemaking, pulling, and salting treatment, “tastes” identical, with moderate bitterness and absolutely zero acidity.

The 2nd pic shows the yield results of each run.

Key Points:
1. Comparing (I,0,0,0,1) vs (B,0,0,0,1): Bulk paste preparation and division into equal-sized portions, provides the same or slightly better yield than individual preparation of portions that are the same size as subdivided bulk portions.

2. Comparing (B,0,0,0,1) vs (B,1,0,0,1): Wet mixing or dry mixing of standard process paste provides no meaningful difference in yield.

3. Comparing standard process (I,0,0,01), (B,0,0,0,1), (B,1,0,0,1) vs all other treatments: The standard process provides the same or higher yield than any of the other treatments (which involve additional processing steps).

4. Comparing (B,0,0,1,0) vs (B,0,0,1,1) and (B,0,1,1,0) vs (B,0,1,1,1): Adding a 2 minute resting period after 1 minute of mixing, per pull, provides the same or better yields, particularly when using magnetic stirring.

5. Comparing Salting/Crystallization methods A, B, C: Except for chilled treatments with a 2 minute rest period, passive vs active stirring makes little difference in yield. Additionally, the high citric acid active stirring treatment provided no addition yield vs the low acid active stirring treatment.

Wow, that's a lot of work - thanks Cheelin.

One question:



You mean 2/3 of added water has evaporated? I've made a typo earlier on this before, sorry if that caused confusion.

I want to simply try less water in the paste with none of the TEK options. I think your theory is right, the options may not do much in general. I think a good starting paste is key and perhaps adding water until it is all wet and has the right consistency is the best strategy. A fixed amount of water may be too much for a subset of starting material. Shooting for a certain paste consistency may be best to make the TEK more robust for everyone.

Yes, will be a labor of love, for a clumsy person who hates the level of concentrated effort a useful experiment requires.

Thank you Loveall for that very important typo correction. I have corrected the post.

Fyi, all of my standard method paste runs since getting up the learning curve, regardless of dry or wet mix, have yielded a doughlike paste (somewhat less dense consistency than playdough), and provided 100% white/off-white crystals, all except 1 run was 85*% filtered out before the jar was water washed, all with absolutely zero acid “taste”

Hi all, I agree with Cheelin, after doing a few extractions , clear white crystals were obtained when the paste had that density he writes about, when more water was used and/or not quality powder was used..crystals were orange/brown color and sticky and was unable to clean them with fresh EA
Seems that as in the spaghetti recipes., the secret is in the pasta...

Keep the fantastic work you are doing!

Is it fine for me to scale the 69ron paste from 100g to 200g in a single container? I.e 200g cactus powder, 600g water, 50g CaOH.

I have 400g in dried powder from some peruvian torch.

I would like to run the same experiment twice:

Take 200g of powder and form the 69ron paste. Split the 69ron paste in half, and extract one half with cold EA and one half with room temperature EA.

I would like to do this experiment twice, that way I can determine if I am being consistent from time to time or if there are other variables that are ruining my experiment.

Loveall, for now I'm going to stick with the 69ron ratios. I want to convince myself that I am actually following the standard tek closely before I make alterations to it.

One thing I have notices is that my cactus powder is not perfectly ground up. For the most part it looks good, but I see the occasional chunk here and there. I use a cheap blender I purchased for $30 at a big box store to blend my cactus powder.

Is your guys' powder perfectly ground up, 100%, or are you OK with the occasional tiny chunk floating around?

Do you use a particular blender that you would recommend?



Would it make any difference if you just filtered the liquid into another dry jar immediately, instead of waiting 1 hour and checking if you need to filter the liquid into another dry jar?


For my first couple of extractions, I waited the 1 hour but didn't see particles, so I just proceeded. What I've done recently is skip this step but just do a second filtration just in case there would have been something. Is this OK or is there some purpose to waiting the 1 hour?

Cheelin, on 543 you said:



Would you please elaborate?

1 hour wait is mostly to see if water departed from EA. That can take a bit of time. Also, particles that get through the filter will be easier to see if given time to accumulate at the bottom.

A coffee grinder is what I use to get the final powder (food processor before that for the cacti dry chunks). I'm going to specify this on the TEK, insufficient grinding could be an issue.

HLP, based on your descriptions of how the paste looks after microwaving (clumps) and after EA (sticky to spoon), I think your starting paste is too watery. I recommend you try less water in the initial paste. See above for similar observations. It is your choice of course, just recommending what I would do in your situation.

I think having a fixed amount of water in the TEK is not ideal. Instead, we should specify to add water until the desired consistency is obtained.

Just like cooking the perfect churros: one can't specify the exact amount of water. The best chefs know to target a dough consistency, the actual amount of water depends on the flour type, water hardness, etc and cannot be accurately be given a priori.

Multiple times people have reported goo or sticky xtals, then lowered the amount of water in the paste and gotten white xtals. This TEK appears sensitive to the wetness of the paste. The 69ron ratios where just borrowed form a similar limomene TEK, and there is no reason to believe they are optimal for EA which is simpler but more sensitive to water (especially for variable plant material, variable ground particle sizes, etc)

Based on this and other user feedback, I want to update the TEK to specify paste consistency and not exact water amount. Then, I want to kill all the other options, provided the greener EA can be reused without issues.

This would simplify the TEK and make it more robust I believe.

HLP,

re: post 572:
My $0.02 on scaling - I don’t have much evidence yet, as far as the process times are concerned. I suspect they need to increase as powder quantities increase. I know for sure that when doing the microwave option, the time needed to evap 2/3 of the water increases as paste quantity increases. It looks to me like when powder quantities increase, at least mixing time may also need to increase beyond 8 minutes, or a better mixing technique is needed to remain at 8 mins. In my case, it’s just too damn hard to get same amount of individual particle mixing, going from 15 to 25g of powder to 45g of powder; for larger amounts, the quality of 8 minute mixing would drop for sure. As for ingredient ratios above 100g of powder, looks to me like those experiments have yet to be done.

re: post 573:
I think powder particle size matters; smaller particles give powder more total surface area to interact with lime & solvent. My powder comes ground as fine and as uniform as baking flour.

As long as your water wash residue is not white and relatively sticky, i’d do the 1 hour settling. When most crystals end up in the filter and the water wash residue is clean, is when i’d start tinkering with the times, materials, amounts, steps, etc. - cuz, then it becomes more obvious what a specific change affects.

re: post 574
I was referring to the weight yield diffs between standard method “wet mix” paste vs the standard method “dry mix” paste. Yield from wet mix was about 0.05g (0.2%) for the jar wash residue, for dry mix 0.01g (0.07%). In other words, the overall lower % wt for dry mix came from lower residue in the dry mix runs. Lower residue wt may be related to slightly higher dry mix purity (i.e. less crap in the water wash), but diffs are so small, could just be random variation.

Note: you cannot directly compare my actual weights, since the powder weights were different in each experiment “wm” powder 25g, “dm” powder 15g; all materials proportionately adjusted), so you have to compare product wt as % of powder wt.

_Trip_, did you notice a difference in the initial paste consistency between green skin and white core? I wonder if the core powder absorbs more water (since the plant stores water there), and the green skin paste comes out wetter if using the same cacti-powder:water ratio for both sections of the plant.

If so, when using whole plant, the diameter of the cactus would matter (powder from thicker cacti needing more water and vice versa). The outer skin only powder would be the lowest cacti-powder:water ratio, perhaps it needs to be less than 3 to avoid off colors (the green color is rinsed away easily, I'm referring to brown colors and even stickiness or goo in extreme cases).

Sounds to me like an experiment or two, Loveall: green vs white vs woody. Yield info will be nice, quality of end products, too. I can’t do it now, no plants big enough. Maybe next year I could invest in some 3rd-party logs. Would be useful to have someone with enough of their own crop to do some careful side-by-sides.

And, as far as including spines and waxy layer, I find it difficult to believe that these things have no impact on quality and yield.

I’m building a big supply of used solvent, so my next experiments will be about using reclaimed solvent.

I would agree with the more water the less purity by color is observed and since starting cielo extractions, it was my belief that water was causing goo for people. However, I believe perhaps some water is needed as Loveall has mentioned previously through his observations for the crystallization process. Then again, for memory when a chemical dry was performed crystals still formed fine but not white, an off white (i used excess citric acid though). Loveall did you find the chemical dry to hinder crystal formation at all? And as you usually use less citric acid did the end result come out cleaner by color? (This is going back a while now).

I would add too, even if sticky to 2/3rds rule one can get cleaner crystals from less citric acid and no shaking (someone else mentioned this recently HLP or Cheelin?). These are my personal observations anyway.





I can't say I remember noticing a difference in paste consistency, I thought it was quite similar (but i wasn't actively taking note either). It did quickly change color with the microwaving. I stuck with the original ratios. I think the white pulp and core need more experimenting than just what I have done. However, at room temp pulls and excess citric acid it came out much purer by color than the green skin layer. Being that the core is mostly water this makes sense. What isn't clear is that the whole white pulp contains mescaline or just the outer white layer closest to the green layer??? Maybe it would be worth testing core separate from white pulp?

I must say I have not notice much difference in doses even when color is less white. It might by impurities as low as 1% or less throwing off the color. You cold do two extractions side by side,
1. Thorough mixing, less water, cold pulls, less citric acid (maybe using inner core), 48 hour salt time and wash with EA.
&
2.One as per standard tek say microwave, 3:1 water ratios, warm pulls, excess citric acid, excess shaking, 2 hour salt time and no EA wash after salting.

And then send both samples off for lab testing. That'll tell you the exact purity difference. I'd chip in some crypto for that if everyone is that keen to learn the difference in purity by color.

Would be interesting to dry the mix with the microwave, leave it out on a bench or in the sun to dry further, powderise it in the blender and then do your pulls.



I found spines and wax hurt yields, its on a couple previous posts. To find out for sure a wax and spines only extraction could be done. But I don't like your chances of yielding anything.

Reclaim solvent works well I noticed no discernible difference in yield.

Good stuff _Trip_.

It is so cool, being a part in developing a fast, simple, easily repeatable, high purity tek, like this one; that offers the opportunity to provide lots of diff quantifiable info about sacred cacti, by regular folk, instead of opinion of the past.

Things about Quantity and Qualiity of crystal: from skin vs pulp vs core; older vs younger growth; diff species & clones; young vs old plants; with/without and how long in dark; stressors; harvest timing; consistent personal dosing levels, etc.

I’m looking forward to learning so much about these plants, plants that have so much to offer for people struggling with trauma, depression, grief, terminal disease, ptsd, addiction, etc., in addition to spiritual and recreational purposes.

Cheelin this thread may interest you:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=71353



Especially the quote above.