A interesting article from Psyche.
https://psyche.co/ideas/depression-is-more-than-low-mood-its-a-change-of-consciousness

I've never been depressed, but at some periods I've felt low. And been having thoughts and feelings that were keeping me down, more in the grey area. I wouldn't have said that it was a dramatic change of consciousness, but still it felt that the world (me included) were a bit different.

In dealing with major depressive disorder as well as persistent depressive disorder, I can agree with reading this title alone. From my experience, it's a given.

There is a persistent difficulty in feeling good and hopeful in the world often times for me, no matter how I try to augment my self-speak and "think more positively." We act off of what we feel is true, and sometimes depression prevents one from being able to believe something they tell themselves.

For me, my depression seems strategic in its manipulations. I don't take meds and mitigate the issue on my own, and with psychedelics. This does however mean that I tread lightly in my own mind, always trying to redirect nefarious thinking. Some patterns and behaviors become deeply ingrained, and some of them can seem like they came from ones own mind but can still be a by-product of depression. It's a bit ruthless.

My time psychedelics has shown me first hand the change of consciousness depression can impose. After coming down from DMT or mushrooms, I tend to have a better outlook on life, a better sense of well-being, more hope, more motivation, more active engagement, etc. for a few days after. Then depression slowly creeps in shortly after. I can sometimes manage without any assistance, but do you psychedelics therapeutically to help me feel better, develop skills for handling it outside of their spaces, and to promote overall levels of resilience.

Thank you for sharing.

One love

It is an interesting article, it made me think about a few things. I agree with void also as a person diagnosed with severe depression and having undergone many crises in my life, I can say that depression indeed is a state of consciousness. As the article implies, a very subtle one in opposition to dreams or the psychedelic state, but a alter-worldview all the same. It changes the way a person perceives time and their own experience in it, creates irrational distortions of perception, modifies behavior and in one of it's most insidious machinations, nullifies the ability to creatively think in a future-oriented postive direction. Paraphrasing a quote within the article: it exists outside of time, in a state in which the experiencer cannot imagine themself in any other way, even if they were a week ago and will be again in a matter of hours somehow removed from the depressed state. It is transitorily eternal. Like a singularity of emotional pain; within the darkness there is no escape in any way- the person in cannot perceive the out of it because to them it literally extemds out in all directions forever, but to an outside observer, it is a self-contained moment of temporal circumstance, escapable by any number of possibilities.

Saying that depression is a consciousness state does not in way dilute the fact that it is a life-threatening serious condition that requires strong personal attention and professional support to get through and resolve. Nor should it imply in any way that a depressed patient can just "change their mind" and not be depressed any more than they can change the past. And going forward in this post I do not want to imply that I think psychedelics will cure it or any serious condition in and of themselves. Taking a psychedelic is not taking medicine, they are neither inherently good nor bad. They do not address any physical condition and treat it through a mechanism of their pharmacology. They do things that can be directed and channeled in a beneficial manner to guide a person toward wellness and a healed state. They are simply tools that can be used for this, among many, many other things, both good and not so good.

The article seems to cut a either/or scenario with how psychedelics may be working to achieve the effectiveness they have been shown to have in treating and resolving depression at a root level, that seems overly reductionist, especially considering that psychedelics are metaphorically spectral in nature, not black and white:



I think neither is the case but rather both, with an added facet of experiential spirit-based intuition. The removal of cognitive inhibition causes a deep introspection applied under a symbolically illuminated lens. The unfettered creative mind, using all of it's archetypal and individual symbol language discloses to the individual the secrets of both the universe and their person under the colorful jackhammer of psychedelic gnosis and the insight obtained in such a state is so deeply meaningful on so many levels within a person's psycho/spiritual makeup that carrying it back into 'normal' state is desirable. So, both uninhibited insight and global state change can be part of the basis for how psychedelics treat depression outside of a purely neuro-pharmacological mechanism like some current medical treatments. Good luck to all the paid and volunteer lab coats in measuring the nanograms of divinitory revelation per unit of psychological resolution on the gnostic scale, it just seems to work...

I also find using psychotropics to be far less beneficial and to have far too many destructive side-effects versus using psychedelics for depression and related syndromes and conditions. Also psychedelics are far more inline with my value for autonomy- I can self-treat, within reason, and not have to be reliant upon daily medication for equilibrium. Using them as part of a complex practice of self-care, professional and social support, I think they are very useful agents of change.

Thanks for sharing the article...

Thanks for sharing.

Very thought provoking article. It reminds me of the quote attributed to Albert Einstein: "We cannot solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them.”

Getting lost in an unproductive thought loop, psychedelics serve as reminder that there are tools to break out of that loop, at least momentarily.

Great replies, thank you. Your personal experiences, of both depression and other states of consciousness, are helpful for me to better understand people around me. And to perhaps talk with them in another way and to be a better support for them.

As I wrote I've not had much own experience of depression but I think that there are much we should and could do as a society regarding the 'epidemic' that it's sometimes called. I also believe that the mind (depressed or not) are a part of a larger whole and that we have to take that into consideration too. In the 70's there were a push back on psychiatry, saying that it tried to adjust people with healthy reactions in a bad environment (feeling depressed, worrying etc.). Instead of helping to change the environment or society. I don't think it's that simple but It's still a valid thought I believe.

But I'd like to raise another question. As I believe the world and our civilization is in a position it's never been before. There are a huge uncertainty about the future. Climate breakdown, mass extinction, economic collapse, resource depletion, staggering inequalities just to mention some of the major ones.

I believe that many of us has to change our minds, and the (relational, economical, material, legal) system that supports our civilization. But this is really hard it seems. As it been said "Why is it easier to imagine the end of the world, than to imagine the end of capitalism?" (you may change 'capitalism' to any -ism or belief system that you think is behind our situation). Is it so that we are in a certain 'state of consciousness' that limits us but that we just cant see a way out of? In a way similar to the depressed consciousness is "in a state in which the experiencer cannot imagine themself in any other way" as you wrote null24.

I don't want to change the subject of this thread, just wanted to expand it a bit.

As I am dealing with multiple "symptoms" at the present moment of my depression, I thought it prudent to share in the spirit of this thread with regard to how depression alters consciousness.

Sometimes it's hard to pin down what a particular faceted issue is. For me, there is so much that I would like to do that would be meaningful for me to do, but more often than not (a lot more often than not) I struggle to find the motivation to do those things. Simply desiring to do them appears as insufficient as a means to motivate myself. And while there are thoughts attached to this feeling of avolition, it is mainly a feeling. It's as if my blood, bones and muscles are lead, and my thoughts are a metallic alloy particulate. A great example is my thread "Delineating My Skepticism" that I'm presently late on posting in. Depression becomes a meat-grinder of desire. I would like to draw more often, but don't. I'd like to write more often, but don't. I'd like to work on music more often, but don't. I would love to get my master's, but aside from having no career path plans and being financially strapped, don't feel that I could accomplish it. Depression is a negative Ouroboros of the consciousness.

Fortunately, when I continually put the work in diligently to better manage my depression, I discover new things, like how motivation is absent for me. This way I can work on that aspect and it's connections to other aspects of my depression (feeling unintelligent, feeling unaccomplished, feeling defeated, fatigue, etc; all byproducts of depression and unresolved trauma and obstacles). It should be noted, it's not just about figuring out the facets, but also how each interacts with each other and how they interact in groupings. How avolition and fatigue combined create their own special issue. How those two, plus feeling defeated creates a different monster. And how all the different permutations of facets and intensities of facets need their own remedies and management techniques.

Considering this and a recent journey where some mind told me that of all things I "should do DMT" I will be giving myself over more so, without guilt or shame (at least attempting to), give myself over more to the psychedelic experience.

One love

Oh yeah, for sure, absolutely. But that state is normal everyday concensus reality- the get up and go rat race of productivity and spending that most people have sold their soul to across the globe, convinced of the importance of their responsibilities. We are all to varying degrees both chained by and to self-limiting beliefs instilled in us from every direction from the day we are born: to be good consumers, to stand up straight, not talk back, be good workers, be responsible and productive, be so many things that we lose all ability to be and spend all our time and energy do-ing. As attached as we are to the fruits of capatalism, we as a society could never chop down the tree. I think our culture is a depressed amd insane one, the symptoms are all around us: most people do nothing but engage in escape strategies and work to pay for them.

I agree this can be an interpretation of our society. And what of the life of a red blood cell? Shuttling oxygen to where it's needed and carrying waste carbon dioxide so it can be exhaled from the body. A worker ant spends its life searching for food to bring back to the colony. The sun shines for billions of years, eventually swelling and then contracting to spend a trillion years as a white dwarf. Are the red blood cell, the ant, and the sun "doing" or "being"?

The purpose of the mind is to tell stories. Telling a story of a depressed and insane culture, a story of people doing nothing except engaging in escape strategies. Telling the story of a red blood cell, the ant, the sun, and the mind itself. As the mind serves its purpose by telling stories, is it doing or being?

I apologize, I wanted to answer this question, but forgot, even though this thread has been on my mind.

It takes imagination and a certain positivity in order to be able to see a possibility of things being a different way. When one is in a depressed state, they typically are lacking in things like hope and positivity and so the cycle seems impossible to escape except through the cessation of existence of people (for the case of the -isms). We become habituated to patterns of our experience and the more those patterns flow, the further entrenched the habits become, sometimes leaving other possibilities in the wake of its forward progression through time. These patterns and habits can also curtail our imagination to be able to see and influence change. Most people have a difficulty with change for this reason. But change is constant, on every level.



I'd say that on all counts the answer would be both. But the distinction between the more subtle be-ers (the red blood cell, the ant, the sun) and the human mind is level of sapience and self-awareness. The former seem to be unaware of their doing, so much so that they are just being in what they do. But we typically become so immersed in what we're doing or that we feel we should do that we forget and neglect the nature of our being. We take our being for granted. In order to do, one must be.

One love

At the risk of derailing the thread:

I am speaking of (consumerist) culture at large, not all individuals that make up society, please don't confuse the two.

I would argue that telling stories is not at all the purpose of mind. That is a symptom. A mind repeating stories of its ennui to itself is only doing just that, engaging in a action stuck within attachment and desire, to risk sounding religously dogmatic. A mind serves its purpose when it creates. You may argue that that is do-ing, but anyone who has been in in "flow state" will tell you- creation is be-ing.

The difference between humans and our cultures and the things you mention is simple. Consciousness and the small matter of free will. Outside of some metaphysical argument, the sum knows nothing but how to shine and burn out its nuclear fuel and it does not question that, an ant knows only to gather food for its hive under that sun and does not experience ennui for doing so and not being free to explore its options. A person knows within themself their own nature of be-ing, but often chooses to do instead, and rather than be their own course navigator, chooses another's definition of path. Even though they may see no other choice for the Saturnian limits placed upon them by authorities and it seems like the thing they must do, it is always choice.

One with the gift of mind has the choice to only be, and that does not imply inaction but rather just the opposite- to be is to move with, not against the unfettered movement of life; the flow of sensation and emotion and thought and body in a dance of purpose, meaning and will. To participate in the eternally creative force that is life rather than the quick blind shuffle towards death that is consumerism.

I agree just with the title. Like Void I have struggled with intense and persistent depression, although I am blessed to have overcome it for the time being. It was almost like flicking a switch, and it happened around a time when I was doing DMT once a week back in early summer (unusual for me). All of a sudden... I was not depressed. That program was closed and a new one was started. I still sometimes feel blue, empty, sad, et cetera, but it somehow feels qualitatively different from being depressed. I can live in those emotions and explore them and express them in my creative work without being consumed and destroyed by them. Depression is an uncreative state.

I am going through a similar experience right now void. I feel existentially depressed and I don't know anyone around me well enough to properly convey my feelings (I have recently moved far from loved ones/friends). It seems like depression is like filter on your consciousness that gets added to your everyday experience. Psychedelics give a me brief respite from the feeling but it doesn't last long. I have found putting effort into the creating a routine and trying to get connection from people (even if they are strangers) have been some ways I stay above water. I have been trying out churches to see if they fit in my life. I like the community that they foster but don't like the dogma.

I am not really bothered by our capitalistic society I think we could have a better system but am not sure even how to begin to do that. Its much easier to just adjust to the current status quo then tear everything down and build again. Perhaps we will be able to shape up and invent our way into a system like star trek's.

PS. The Nexus is one of the things in my life right now that is definitely keeping me above water.

We unite in solidarity here. This place too has not only helped me more than I can describe, but has also helped keep me above water. Typical social situations and functions disinterest me. I tend to observe. And I find it hard as well to talk to most around me about what's really going on in my mind, because I tend to lean away from things that everyone's paying attention to. Enjoy the tracks I take more often (caveat; that does mean I miss out sometimes, but I've long shrugged off the fear of missing out). Certain paths, ways, degrees, modes, etc of thinking can turn out to be isolating. At least that has been my experience for most of my life, and for most of my life I've struggled with depression. They may not cause one another, but it's an interesting correlation.

The hunt for meaning, in what can very often (especially with depression) seem like a purely meaningless existence is brutal and often feels somewhat futile. Psychedelics help with that for me, as well as managing my depression.

I like the filter analogy. I sometimes feel like I'm battling another mind that augments my thoughts and thinking. It seeps in wherever it can. It manipulates your perspective, and in most moments, one may not be aware of all the ways in which it is doing such.

I encourage you to continue trying out new things to see what fits you, balances you, sources you, and fulfills you.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you ever need to talk.



One love

Dear Voidmatrix

Have you looked into a book by the name:

The Disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard

Uplifting, entertaining and highly informative book about spirituality.

I found it helpful...Good~Luck

What do you like about it to recommend it?

I started reading this and this was a kind of synchronicity, like this book is directly related to the "course in miracles". Sorry for OT, but it is funny how some kind of serendipity arranges all things in time and life

While I sure do have quite the long reading list, this sounds very fun.

Thank you for the recommendation and kind wishes

One love

Thought it might be beneficial to share a little information centered on the biochemical and neurological impacts of and in depression, particularly with respect to MAO-A.

One love

Interesting study Voidmatrix but a bit over my head also.

And I just saw this:
Yale University To Study DMT For Depression