Then we stop becoming men. I don't think they would have ever said the same things to a woman in their presence but, for a man, there is a masculine way to handle such a situation. I am not masculine enough to have seen it or carried it out, but I wouldn't want masculinity to be deconstructed on behalf of men like me. Men have systems of social order. It has taken me decades to learn what these men have always known. They still do not know themselves, but I know what I am. From a naturalist standpoint, I am the defective one here.

Well, I fall on the opposite end of the masculinity spectrum from you, hixidom. So much so that I am able to get in touch with feminine aspects of my personality without being challenged by other males. I have felt comfortable carrying a shoulder bag for over twenty years now, or wearing a sarong for lounge wear without any concern that another male might question it.

I didn’t mean to derail your thread and talk about my personal issues with toxic masculinity. I assumed you had said all you wanted to say twice, and (perhaps poorly) assumed you were at a point where you preferred people would stop commenting on the thread.

I just really appreciated that a woman (MMM) recognized that some men are feeling left out by #me too. I wanted to add to her point about men being victimized by other men by commenting that I have been victimized by women on many occasions. And that victimization is possible because of toxic masculinity.

You speak in riddles, for while the behaviors you mention are [associated with the] feminine, not caring what other people think about them is masculine.


More riddles

It seemed you were stating that if men were to admit to victimization, that we would somehow cease to retain our masculinity.

I was simply stating that most people consider me to be extremely masculine - to the point that upon engaging in behaviors associated with femininity, those behaviors when associated with me, cease to be associated with femininity for any practical purpose that I have been able to observe.

The point I was/am attempting to make in my previous post and now is that, yes a very masculine guy can be a victim. And I had no intention of speaking in riddles - I thought I was being very clear. The behavioral limits that men are held to, eg we must always want sex or we’re going to be considered to be submissive or homosexual, are the kind of things that can allow a woman to bully you into an unwanted sexual encounter.

This is a fairly minuscule part of my feelings and observations on the subject, but I wouldn’t think it should really take any more to make my point. Men shouldn’t have to accept abuse in order to show we’re “tough guys “. If you don’t agree, then feel free to accept abuse, but know that if I’m out there and I see you needing help, I’ll stand with you, and I would hope you would do the same.

I agree that men who are more masculine are less prone to such insecurity! That is one of the main insights of this whole experience for me. Some men are so secure in their masculinity that they could be raping another man without it affecting their sense of heterosexuality. Rather, it's a matter of dominance in their mind. It makes me wonder things about human origins.

Again, I didn’t intend to derail your thread and I’m sorry for trying to make this about my issues. I thought we had a broader issue in common, but it appears this is not the time or place to take that out of the box. You have every right to still be feeling bruised by the experience you have shared here and I had no intention of aggravating any ill feelings.

I think sexual violence is definately NOT a normal expression of human sexuality. And it is not an expression of masculinity either.

I don't know what it is an expression of, but sex and violence are in no way related by themselves. People who do find the two related, must have definately suffered some sort of damage.

If human sexuality ever would be supposed to be anything other than just itself, it would be one of the many manifestations of love.

I don't think you can have sex with another person in a healthy way without in some way saying:"i value you".
Even if you look at sex purely from a biological point of view. Because from a biological point of view, to have sex with someone is basically saying:"i would want you to be the father or mother of my childeren".

People who enjoy humiliating others are probably about the ugliest people there are, because they are ugly inside.

I am so saddened to hear your story. It feels like you are carrying shame somehow but you were setting a clear boundary. Ann and Sasha Schulgin had a group policy "no sex with anyone you have not already been involved with" during bioassay. One of the problems with recreational settings is that there may be indivuals or groups that prey on people under the influence because they have issues with sex addiction or power. It is not unmasculine to say #metoo as a male. Sure their is a stigma for those who are unevolved. I am a male and I was sexually assaulted by another man who took me in off the streets back when I was a crackhead 20 years ago. It took me a long time to even admit to myself it was wrong and that somehow because of my station at the time I deserved what happened. Lies we tell ourselves to protect our psyche that in the long term reveal deeper internal issues. At least for me. Gaslighting is never OK.

Its OK to say NO and mean NO. You are sovereign over your body and even if you are male you have the right to call them out directly and publicly if necessary. I love working in a group, i am old enough to have seen bad shit go down. I believe all groups should set guidelines before journeying together and never trip with someone who is just getting high and not currently working on their shit. I also don't trip with anyone who does not have a meditation practice anymore. I work alone a lot as you can imagine. Intention setting and integration are so important to unlock what these compound hold for us.

I'm so sorry you had this experience, hixidom. And my heart goes out to everyone in this thread that has gone through similar treatment. I've experienced gas lighting, huge invasions of privacy and inappropriate sexual advances in a community of psychedelic users. Just sharing my own story to help affirm that you are not alone in this.

I witnessed one manipulator abuse people psychologically, and then use their position + the fact that psychedelics were involved to suggest that the abused individuals were losing their minds. It happened to a handful of people one after the other, and when I spoke up about it, they used the same techniques on me.

You showed an incredible strength by not attempting to correct their story, and by stepping away. I would say that its almost certain that they were and are consciously lying. Some people enjoy the hit of manipulating even after the traumas. The more reasonable of the individuals won't admit it, even though its staring them in the face. There are just too many legal and personal reasons why they would never be able to express the truth.

When my memories of similar events rise up, I ask the same exact question... "Is the average person this evil?" Honestly, I believe that many of them have this potential, although not everyone intends to do it. Especially in a situation where a primary abuser is coercing them. Now, I know that I have used these experiences to learn how to protect myself, observe warning signs, and steer clear of those who show this potential in subtle or obvious ways.

I tried to respond to your questions without offering ways to fix it. If you feel I overstepped that, feel free to disregard my message or let me know outright.

Best wishes to you. And thank you for sharing this, even though I'm sure it wasn't easy. It helps raise awareness for others and helps people like myself to continue healing.

The potential for evil is present within all of us. Most people will naturally gravitate towards the opposite though. If they are given the choice, most people will prefer to try to find ways to resolve differences, rather than let them escalate into violence.

Sometimes there are things like peer pressure though, or sheer intimidation.
And to stand up against, or to break away from such forces is not easy.

In the worst case it could mean having to turn your back on what you once considered to be your family.

That just takes guts.
And not that many people have it.