I agree, and I am aware that all of these are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I am just saying that "What goes up, must come down", if you will. It is human nature to consume and to use resources of the earth in order to facilitate that consumption. I think the problem here is not cocaine, but the ravenous nature of the human monkey, itself. We tend to do what is the cheapest, and/or the most convenient, to achieve our end-game. We tend to leave that which is the most efficient for sustainability out of the conversation all together. As far as murders go, Post Office employees, themselves, have also been responsible for many deaths, as well as accidents that occur when drilling oil, making dams, etc. The cartels are also involved in a LOT of large scale Cannabis growing in Northern California, Colorado, and several other states as well.

I believe there is much more going on in the rabid ravaging of the earth in recent history than just human nature... Humans have a lower nature and a higher nature. It's not by chance that our lower nature is imposed in the collective.

If other things we take for granted such as cell phones and cars are no less destructive than the cocaine trade, then they should all also be up for scrutiny, revision, reform, etc.

IMHV, as my personal values tell me.

In summary, cocaine is an easy target as it's pretty easy to not buy cocaine while leading a normal life, while things like phones and cars are somewhat harder for most people to avoid completely - or at least persuading people to give them up is incredibly difficult, probably more difficult than persuading someone to give up coke...

Unfortunately, it's beyond individual choices...

Right. To even put a dent in the issues we have, there is going to have to be a global, and cultural change on dozens of fronts all working together. Setting strict rules and enforcing them somewhat effectively. Most anything, barring some insanely complicated issues, can be accomplished if the collective throws enough, money, time, blood, sweat and tears at. A feasible plan for a global green-ness that would actually cause real change would be massive. Even, say, everyone mandates that the only way to farm livestock allowable is Joel Salatin's method, which is a groundbreaking method in agriculture which uses several methods to sequester carbon and rebuild soil while it is in use seasonally. Even IF this was mandates globally, it would only create a small dent in the destruction of the planet. Delaying the inevitable. And as science gets better, they would probably find a whole other way in which nature was affected negatively. That seems to be the cosmic joke. Nothing is ever "fixed" or "complete".

I believe this is a good approach to big ethical issues. To you as a person and people around you your intentions matter more than the consequences of your deeds.

It's very difficult to draw line what is objectively wrong. If you take cocaine out of curiosity some time, is it same as, say, punching someone in the face? I don't think there is an objective answer to this. Personal integrity (opposed to shallow moralism) makes people around you take responsibility as well. It won't bring the cartels down but it can make people do little things better.

You people are ofcourse right btw, about there being other products with a tainted karma as well.

The way i see it though, is that with many consumer goods, there often is something of an upside as well. With some products, this brighter side is very small and insignificant, and you can easily see that the benefits in no way outweigh the costs.

But very often, if we all would suddenly stop buying a certain product, that would also hurt many innocent people.
And sometimes there is a choice between eco and people friendly brands and not so eco and people friendly brands.

With some products though, like cocaine, i don't see any benefit at all. Small coca farmers are probably the only people in the entire chain, who are not a plague to anyone they come into contact with.
Virtually all the people touching the product on it's way to the noses of wealthy people, are cold-blooded murderers. And those who're not, are on their way becoming cold blooded murderers.

The maffia culture surrounding the business, glorified in stupid movies where mobsters are being portrayed as "man of honor", has bred an environment of childeren killing other childeren. Some childeren have no other aspirations in life than becoming a gangster.

That's kind of sick.

Thanks pinkoyd,

that's a good thing to learn

I'm not in the American market, so i assume Brazil is more likely the origin of the barks that come my way. This eases my conscience a bit, i really thought MHRB was probably not sustainable.

These things you describe really are sick. I agree, the movies and the romanticization of mafias are stupid and not a good influence for anyone except (ex)mafiosi who want to feel good about themselves.

Most individuals who i met who were selling, were more like weed dealers than like gang or cartel members. Of course that's also the type of person i was looking for, so i can't speak to the ratio of 'chill' vs. 'aggro' coke dealers overall. There definitely do exist some gangs here in Europe as well.

About the upsides, i guess that is somewhat individual. While i almost never do it, i do like coke as a drug. In a circle of friends (who are not in it too deep) it can be a lot of fun.
Historically, it sure was a breakthrough towards modern medicine - the first local anaesthetic.

Basically, i do not believe in bad drugs, only in bad usage patterns. Even for coke.

To me, coke is like an anti psychedelic. It alters perception and thoughts, in pretty much the opposite direction that psyches do. It can be a tool for self exploration, to confront some generally darker sides, and i don't think we can simply say that's not worth anything.

That's also the thing about alternatives. If you just want to stay awake, sure, plenty of alternatives. If the specific effects of cocaine are what you seek, i don't think there are (m)any. Kinda like there are many analogues of mescaline, but none of them really feels the same (from what i heard).

Yeah, i suppose there could be some small fishes out there that aren't too bad. But when people who're killing eachother in gangwars are very often in their late 10's or early 20's, then the violence doesn't start just only very high up the chain.

Hey Dragonrider, given how this topic has expanded from the original purview, I'd like to hear why you chose cocaine specifically.

There's a lot of diverse and beautiful perspectives here. Many have shown the interconnectedness between a variety of seemingly disparate goods and industries.

While I voted yes, my caveat would be that it's indirect bloodied hands. In this context, it seems that most people living in western developed countries may have indirect blood on their hands by, using cell phones, driving gas vehicles, using wood products, using some computer products and components, and even by wearing certain brands of clothing. It could even extend to the interaction with prostitutes, which creates a demand, and filling the demand necessitates violence in that industry.

The world is rough, and life is tough, for by simply living, we inadvertently contribute to a variety of damage the world over. It's hard to escape considering we are powerless to what state and cultural paradigms we are born into, that in one way or another, molds and develops us.

One love

EDIT double post.

I don't realy know why i choose cocaine. Well i do know, and i'll come back to it in a minute.
But the thing is that i am not realy sure myself where i stand on this issue.
And not about whether buying cocaine is ethically justifiable or not, because i think it isn't, but about whether or not i as a person have the right to judge other people over these kind of choices.

The reason why i started this poll, and why i choose cocaine, is that a few weeks ago, a dutch crime-reporter was brutally murdered in amsterdam because of his involvement in a very complex courtcase against a major druglord over a series of brutal murders.

This crime reporter realy was a very special man. Often, people either seemed to love or hate him, but even most of the people who hated him had a great respect for his work as a crime reporter.

I must say that i looked up to him as well, even though he could be a little annoying sometimes.
It was solely because of his efforts for instance, that two innocent men where eventually acquitted in a re-trial of a rape and murdercase that they had previously been convicted for.
People in the US may know him from solving the natalee holloway case.

Everybody knew he was on a deathlist, and two other people involved in this case, a lawyer and the brother of a witness, had already been murdered. But this very brave man choose not to give in to these threats. He choose to risk his life, like he had done many times before, for what he thought was the right thing to do.

They hired a 21 year old wannabe gangster/rapper to do the job. A total nobody and poor excuse of a human being. The only song he ever made was about how school and work just didn't do it for him, so that he had no choice realy, but to pursue a career in crime.

He was caught, about one hour after the fatal shooting, by excellent policework. Not a shot was fired.

So here we are: a very great man was shot dead by a total nobody, like too many innocent people before him, only because he choose to help a crucial witness in a very complicated courtcase. They couldn't kill the witness himself, so they killed his brother instead, and then his lawyer, and now this crime reporter.

And then i just wondered...where do i stand on this? I have always been a strong proponent of legalization of all drugs. And still am.
But this is bigger than my freedom to do with my brain and body whatever i want. This is about innocent people, from where i live, all the way back to south america.

And i wondered where other people stand as well.

I still believe in legalization myself. But legalization is not going to fix this. This is a war over money and power, cartels, monopolies. Billions of euros and dollars.
The only thing prohibition did, is raising the stakes.

This is a very valid statement. Because, in the end, what gives these people the power to do these horrible things IS the prohibition of drugs. Coca is just a plant. Simple as that. The prohibition of said Coca plant/cocaine/all narcotics is the guilty party here. If there were no prohibition, there would be no demand for criminal acts involved with these compounds. Can you imagine someone getting murdered by a member of a "tulip cartel"? The simple answer is no. When we make these substances illicit, we create shadows around them. It is the shadows that are dark, not the substances. And while I do use coca products, I do not purchase cocaine anymore. But this brings me to a new question. Is it the same thing to purchase hard candies, tea bags, or caramels from somewhere like Matses Herbs? I prefer the natural route, and am not a fan of the processed stuff. I do not think that it is bad to make these purchases, but if that is the case, how can I say that it is wrong to purchase the processed stuff? I am also firm believer in "do what you like as long as it is not hurting anyone". So again, I find myself a somewhat of a catch-22. I think it is the responsibility of everyone to make discerning decisions based on where they source their drugs. That is why I think this question is so loaded. No matter how much I, or anyone else for that matter, justify or condemn either answer. There is always a hitch in the argument somewhere; a key point that goes against a core structural belief of my life.

I definitely can!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Thought of that exact instance when I read that sentence

One love

Well I'll be damned..... I don't learn something new EVERY day, but I learned something new today

OK, I'll chime in after all. But i don't think I'm going to answer the poll, although if i were, I'd probably be the only one picking option 3.

I have always thought that solving the "drug problem" is simple. Just simply be real about drug use, and inform people from a young age. Normalize drug use, and recognize it for what it is- an attempt at self medication and it stops being cool so much and becomes more pathetic and sad.

I've always thought a model that provides pharmaceutical grade drugs in safe settings very similar to current methadone clinics, to people presenting with demonstrated addiction (because there always will be some black market or other route to it) would cut the head off the dragon, so to speak, eliminating many social and individual harms caused now in our communities by rampant untreated addiction.

It would also remove a huge portion of the profit motivation for the cartels, although they'd find something else to rape and murder for.

I supported a measure locally that reduced penalties down to the level of a traffic ticket for personal use amounts. Now i think it was short sighted, because while it will reduce the number of marginalized people ending up in the justice system, there are no real provisions to intervene in their addictions in any meaningful way, thereby just allowing them to die invisibly on the street rather than languish in the system.

So, WTF? Yes, when you buy a bag a coke, or dope, or meth, or cartel weed, or MDMA or even cigarettes there are bodies behind it- people died to get it to you, but does the person just trying to be okay in a world that's most definitely not fucking okay have blood on their hands? That's a stretch, I don't want to say you are victim blaming, but maybe you aren't making clear observations. Drug use/ abuse is an incredibly complex subject. Again, i think the only way we can solve it as a problem is to stop looking at it like one and just be real about drugs.

And that's just another short sighted opinion on the matter. It's really hard to look at unemotionally.

Well said, and I don't disagree. In fact, I agree with everything you said, especially about the subject being hard to look at unemotionally. That is definitely a tough one. I don't know anyone that hasn't been touched by substance abuse in some way. Thank you for sharing.

Very well put! I wish my brain worked well enough to articulate it better, because you reached into the depths of my thought process and said it way better than I ever could have. Even down to the point of short-sightedness. It is very difficult for us, as humans, to look outside of our bubble. I find the things I am saying to be quite easy to say, on account that my personal experiences have limits. I feel, that if I were a person living locally, and being affected by these cartels, that I would have a much different perspecive. And coincidentally a different outlook, and opinion. But I do agree, it comes down to the cultural interaction of people+drug+circumstance=.....well, it equals my or your opinion on the matter. That being said, these thoughts are still short-sighted. It would require a HUGE cultural shift in paradigm to take the proverbial "blood from the hands" in many folks' perspectives. Again, it is a very nuanced subject, and if the cultural outlook on such subjects were different, the blood may or may not exist, but it surely would not have such a great effect as we see it having todaqy, in our current understanding of the world. Which is not OK, and we all desperately want it to be. I have a hard time judging anyone for trying to get through another day the best they can.