I finally got my first shot.

I'm personally more worried about the slow pace of vaccination around the globe than about whether there may be some extremely rare side-effects.

You can just do the math yourself and calculate the death toll of not vaccinating vs vaccinating: without vacvination, 80% of the people will get covid-19 at some point in time. Lethality is depending on the average age of the population, and the percentage of people with diabetes, etc, somewhere between 0.1 and 0.5%.
Vaccination will prevent over 99% of those covid deaths and is only lethal to 0.0002% to 0.001% of the people getting the vaccine.

The only reason the authorities make a fuzz about about these side effect is because when you die or get sick from the vaccine, they're directly responsible, while if people just die of covid, no one is.

It's all about the legal stuff and the judicial consequences. The vaccines are safe.

Zero liability from covid vaccine injury
https://www.phe.gov/emer...OVID-19-Vaccinators.aspx

Zero liability from any vaccine injury since 1986
https://trello.com/c/gav...facturers-from-liability

Yes, but it has been a POLITICAL decission. Here in europe, it have been politicians deciding to no longer use the astra-zeneca vaccine. Against the advice of virologists and epidemiologists.

There can only be one explanation, and that is that they're afraid to be held accountable for people experiencing side-effects.
They're afraid of the lawsuits, victims or their loved ones in tears on national television, etc.

I've seen a dutch minister on television openly saying that we could have started vaccinating months earlier, but that that would have required them to circumvent rules and regulations.

At that time several dozens of people where dying everyday, and a multitude of that ended up so sick they nearly died or had to be taken to the hospital, or develloping long covid. And then i'm not even talking about all the people losing their job and/or getting deeper in debt by the day.

And they as leaders could have decided to end this great tragedy, this enormous disaster, months earlier. But they decided not to because they just had to insist so desperately on doing everything by the book.

To be honest, i just don't understand that.

People who are resonant with protection methods other than the vaccines are marginalized and I find this disturbing. Vaccines are not the only way and they are not the sure way for preventing covid19 infection. I have heard of people who get sick or even die with covid19 after being vaccinated. There are doctors who recommend the zinc + vitamin D3 + quercetin combo supplementation as a way of protection. I can't help but question why this measure is not promoted alongside the vaccines. Why is it just vaccines and why is it that everybody has to be vaccinated? CNN might say "there is no evidence of an herbal cure for COVID-19, but that is absolute BS, I myself have cured myself with plants and have been on a very strict, ongoing heavy anticovid herbal supplementation. I was infected when I was not taking any herbal support. So now I have immunity, it might be temporary but so is the vaccine immunity.

I think it is important to wake up to the fact that this covid thing is highly politicized.

I did not mean to imply that any fear or scepsis is wrong or stupid.

I know that it is also very much a cultural issue, and that in some countries or within some communities, there is much more scepsis towards vaccines than in mine.

I was just speaking from my own narrow, northern european point of view, and i think the vaccines should have become available to the citizens here much sooner than they did, so everyone who would have wanted could have got these shots way sooner.

There is no doubt that they seem to be very effective against this epidemic though, looking at countries like israel or the US, where everything seems to be almost normal again.

Considering all the odds, i am personally very glad i got my first shot a few days ago.
But ofcourse i believe that people should be free to decide for themselves whether they want one or not.

In my view these vaccines should be available to every person in the world. Not just to people in wealthy nations.

Dear Dragonrider, my post was not referring to yours. Thank you for your sensitivity.

I agree that vaccine availability is good and necessary.

How did you cure yourself with plants, and what herbal supplements are you taking?

Anti-vaxxers marginalize themselves. They don't require any assistance. Judgment happens when people take actions that prolong the nightmare and ensure more deaths than would otherwise occur.



You may have heard of it. That doesn't mean it's reality. Virtually everyone currently being hospitalized is unvaccinated.



Other than those with a political agenda, the medical community is in lockstep. There are no reputable medical professionals recommending zinc and vitamins in lieu of vaccination.



You didn't. That's fantasy.

Uh oh...

And so it begins...





One love

Yes. Yes it does begin.
It's anecdotal. Are you denying that plants exist that have antiviral properties? Because that is fantasy. Because antiviral plant medications do exist.

Don't imagine that I'm a vaccine-hater by my saying this, because I'm not. Unfortunately I'm not in a position where I can foresee myself even being able to get vaccinated for some time due to some of the aforementioned political reasons that dragonrider raised. Meanwhile, I've fought off several viral infections using a combination of various natural healing methods. Apparently that counts for nothing. There is no reasonable method of proving that I have the relevant antibodies and even if there was it would not, apparently, count for anything either. Conform.

The problem with talking about vaccines these days is that it became a very polarizing emotional discussion, when it should be a nuanced rational one. This subject has been co-opted by politics, and misinformation is abound. People who have never read a scientific paper in their lives talk with full arrogant confidence about what is and what isn't.

Vaccines are legitimate and have saved countless of lives since their invention. Nevertheless, vaccines are distributed by pharmaceutical companies which have been involved in a lot of shennanigans, leading some people to be wary. Also very troublesome events such as when the CIA faked vaccination to try and find Bin Laden have also certainly not helped making people trust vaccination campaigns.

That being said, most of the fears people have of vaccine are exaggerated, based on misunderstandings or completely unfounded and based on fake news. This great wiki entry goes over some of the fears and counter-arguments.

Now specifically about COVID-19 vaccines. Generally, the process of developing vaccines takes many years, decades even, due to regulatory issues but also due to the necessity of extensive testing of tens or hundreds of thousands of people over years to get a full picture of the possible side effects. With COVID-19, due to the emergency situation, this process had to be significantly sped, which on one hand meant an unprecedented level of medical research and development, but also, meant the difficulty or impossibility of seeing all the potential side-effects in the first moment. We are still learning things about this disease and vaccine.

From a public health policy stand point, it seems the right decision was indeed to facilitate and speed up vaccine research and production, and do mass vaccination of the general population with whatever vaccine passed the 4 stages of research with good results.

From an individual stand point, though, not all vaccines are necessarily equally desirable for all people. As an example, the AstraZeneca vaccine was linked to a certain number of deaths due to blood cloth, specially in young women. This information was not clear from the initial research with tens of thousands of people, but became apparent during actual application in millions of people. On men, and specially older people, that risk is practically non-existent. Some countries have changed their policy regarding this vaccine to adjust the application to the less risky population, which IMO is a correct decision. I don't think the policy-makers are to blame for having earlier accepted vaccination to all people including younger women, since this information was not available at first, but what about if someone in your family, your sister for example, was the one that died after taking the vaccine? No amount of statistical justification will bring her back and make you feel at ease. At the same time, how many people's lives were saved that could have died otherwise, but since this is just a statistical information, it doesn't register in our brains as easily. If you could know that a loved one has only been saved due to the vaccine and otherwise he/she would have died, you'd be way more pro-vaccine, but this information is hidden by its very nature.. That's something the people against vaccines don't see.

Another issue that makes this subject more complex, is that the vaccine discussion is mixed with the discussion of public policies: mask mandates, lockdowns, travel restrictions, etc. Generally people fall into two camps, pro vaccine and everything else, or anti-vaccine and everything else. But this can also be nuanced. Someone can be pro-vaccines, but think generalized lockdowns lasting for years do more harm than good, and that masks are good practice and should be done when there are many people but that masks being obligatory wearing outside is senseless, etc etc.

Me personally, I have taken my two shots of Pfizer vaccine. I have measured pros and cons, and think it is very very clear that there are way more pros than cons. That being said I don't think people should be forced to take, but rather people should be properly educated so they can take their own informed decision. For those interested, reddit.com/r/covid19 is a strictly scientific subreddit where peer reviewed papers about vaccines or anything related to the disease are posted and commented on, it's a great resource to learn.

Lastly, as for dithyramb's comment on natural medicine vs covid... The problem here is that you cannot know from subjective judgement whether it worked or not. It is silly to be sure something cured you because you "felt good afterwards", if this was not a part of an actual research with proper statistical analysis. Which doesn't mean it necessarily doesn't work, but it is merely a hypothesis at most, a dangerous fantasy and misinformation at worst. While one may decide to do it oneself since we are all sovereign individuals, I certainly wouldn't talk about it with certainty or "spread the word" to others, at least not with due disclaimers/caveat.

I'm glad someone had the time and patience for an eloquent reply.

That said...

What Endlessness said

One love

Agreed. I was drafting, then deleting, then drafting. Thinking, do I really want to bother sharing in this context?

Thanks endlessness and downwardsfromzero for being refreshingly grounded in your posts on this topic.

Come on now.

In the first place, you have my sympathy re: living somewhere where politics is hampering your ability to get vaccinated, and I certainly respect your efforts to stay healthy by any means necessary.

However, it’s not up to me or anyone else to disprove that you or dithyramb have somehow discovered an herbal cure for COVID. If either one of you have, then by all means, share your science with the world. I'm sure it will be universally appreciated.

It's called ivermectin, it comes from the soil in Japan

Thanks for bringing this to the discussion

Though calling it a cure at this point is misleading wording imo. There is some evidence it may indeed have very significant positive effects, but a "cure" has different implications. For example in a trial with hospitalized patients the benefits were not significant, though this may be because it is time-sensitive and does not offer protection after a certain stage of the infection. Also there have been questions raised about the evidence used to promote ivermectin.


This is not to say that it doesnt help, it may very well become a fundamental part of the fight against this disease, and I think earlier censorship of ivermectin discussion in social media was totally uncalled for.

I just think talking about "cure" is a dangerous framing, that potential "treatment" (or prophylaxis) in the given context is a better wording..

Lastly, note the earlier comments were about other supposed cures with no proof except subjective feeling and conjecture, which is a different case altogether.

I think ivermectin not yet accepted as a general treatment due to the lack/need of clinical data(?)

New Study Links Ivermectin to 'Large Reductions' in COVID-19 Deaths (06/21/2021)
https://journals.lww.com..._Treatment_of.98040.aspx

Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc Cut Death Rate Significantly in COVID-19 Patients, Henry Ford Health System Study Shows
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Peer-reviewed Hydroxychloroquine study finds 84% fewer hospitalizations among early treated outpatients
https://www.sciencedirec...le/pii/S0924857920304258

IMO we need to look at way bigger numbers of patients to have a clearer picture. 100 or 1000 patients is not nearly enough, look at the vaccine study numbers, we have tens or hundreds of thousands. If you look at the bigger studies and meta-analysis on hydroxychloroquine, the data is unfavorable, having a very small effectiveness at best, or actually causing more deaths at worst. Also, hydroxychloroquine has a much more significant risk profile with side effects as compared to ivermectin.

https://www.nature.com/a...0fYZuVR82gF9ZJ4jnfK0VvHc


https://www.clinicalmicr...n.com/article/S1198-743X(20)30505-X/abstract


The brazillian government attempted giving hydroxycholoroquine and denying vaccine distribution and there are now over 500,000 people dead. They are now under criminal investigation because of it.