Well, I thought I'd give BLAB a try seeing how simple it looks. I poured about 1000mL of 5% vinegar inside a glass gallon jug, and then poured about 500 grams of MHRB inside. It was very thick and muddy like, not real runny. I was wondering, is this normal? I'm use to the STB tek and puting 50g of mhrb in a jar of lye water, which is more more fluid than what I have now.

Also after letting it sit for a few hours, I came back to look at it, and it seemed as if there was separation. There was a a middle layer of liquid, and the top layer was much dryer. I stired it all up and it became more fluid again, but still very mudy like.

Are these normal properties you guys have had? Just curious. I also added maybe a quarter cup more of vinegar since the tek calls for 450g of mhrb, I used 500g.

Thanks guys.

When I do BLAB I add extra vinegar. Until it is a really thick liquid.

I also add extra lye when the time comes.

Pokey

Vinegar (acetic acid) is a weak acid and will lead to smaller yields, use phosphoric or hydrochloric for better results.

Okay well the tek said vinegar, so I already did vinegar lol. This is what I dont understand about teks...I always do what the tek says, then 10 people come to me saying oh no you should do it this way...where is the university???lol

vinegar works fine...all the vinegar does is help start the breakdown of the cell walls..so that they are much weaker when you finally base...phosphoric acid does work..ive used it before..but vinegar is so cheap and a lot safer than hcl or other strong acids

yeah exactly, its not a real a/b - just a STB with an acid pre-soak.

dreamwaves: stay the course, it'll be fine.

Not a real A/B? What are the criteria for a real A/B?

And mumbles, have you ever tried BLAB? And if you have, did you try it with two different types of acid and compare?

Pokey the Confused

well supposedly a real a/b is when you COOK the bark with the acid..but it doesnt really matter...the thing is...its possible a different acid might work better...but the yields from vinegar and lye are huge anyway..

A proper A/B would be when a full extraction is performed to get the product in acidic solution with the bark strained out and then that solution is basified. The criteria is that acid is being used for extraction from the bark, but most likely, the bulk of the extraction in BLAB is occurring in much the same way as STB. SWIM has extensive experience doing extractions in a similar way to BLAB and had a preference for it when doing wet extractions (used to think of it as a hybrid A/B/STB, but now considers it as a pretreated STB...PTSTB?). For example, SWIM's method of extraction is a limtek, pretreated with heat and vinegar.

Where the terminology gets really confusing is when A/B is used to describe extraction by basifying and salting out of the extraction solvent with an acid. SWIM thinks that it would be easier to understand that process as simply STB, limtek or drytek (depending on the method of extraction by basification) followed by salting (by FASA, FASW, FASIPA, vinegar or what have you).

The scientific community generally doesn't make a whole lot of distinctions between the types of extractions using either an acid or a base or both, as far as SWIM can tell (STB seems to be distinct to entheogenic extraction community), but this community's need for clarification and distinction greatly exceeds their own, considering the need for accessibility at a much more amateur level.

Swim doesnt' follow "teks", he performs real acid/base extractions without hand holding guides full of uninformed crap. Teks are just tiny variations on very simple and universal processes and in swim's humble opinion they only confuse people new to science. 90% of threads in this forum could be replaced with a simple acetic acid or hcl acid/base extraction example and a list of replacement acids, bases, and solvents. Because all that changes in all these worthless teks are the type and quantity of each, which anyone can calculate given 5mins and they may even understand it better.

mumbles said: "Swim doesnt' follow "teks", he performs real acid/base extractions without hand holding guides full of uninformed crap. Teks are just tiny variations on very simple and universal processes and in swim's humble opinion"


I believe we have different interpretations of the word "humble"....

Pokey

Whats Pokey getting at?

edit: Wait, are you a miffed "tek" modifier?

I guess what he meant is that it doenst come across as very humble when you post your opinion so strongly talking about 'useless teks' and 'uninformed crap', when they have many times been written accurately and informatively, by people who took their own time to write something for the benefit of others, and have actually helped a LOT of people, just maybe not for ALL people, like yourself for example. Not that they are perfect of course, there are many with problematic issues (like the infamous ammonia wash), but thats not a characteristic of all teks, and thats why updates and reviews/criticism of teks are important.

I have to say im one of these people that for sure benefited from teks in the beginning, and then later when I learned the processes, I was able to go beyond and do my own ways too. Im sure a LOT of people did benefit from them like me, and there were people who got confused too, as you said, but im pretty confident that if there werent teks, plenty of (more ?) people would also get very confused.

So maybe reconsider your way of expressing yourself for the future, or not, do whatever you want.. but im just pointing out that indeed it doesnt sound humble how you are posting. I hope you take my post for what it is, as a constructive criticism, because I really mean no offense to you.

(and pardon to the OP for the offtopic )

greets

Ah I see now. The point I'm trying to get across is that these teks are for the most part inaccurate, sure there are absolute gems like coshi's DMT Handbook but very few if any others that are written to that standard. They all document the exact same process just using slightly different acids or bases or solvents and in a different order and somehow that deserves a name. They all build on previous "teks" so people sticking with the older ones will ignore advice from the newer ones like a sodium carbonate wash, or to not wash with ammonia. The DMT Handbook or a simple a/b + a list of substitute acids and bases could just about replace the entire a/b forum and help a lot of confused people by showing them their real options and helping them understand the process and not just a name and some volumes of things to mix.

Sounds like your the man to do the job mumbles. You can talk the talk but can you walk the walk?

I'm a noob here and kinda a noob to extractions. I've done about 8 + or - over the last few years. I'd like to know what's innacurate about these teks, because they have been working great for me I'm averaging 1.5-2% per extract of outstanding full range spice. I though that was pretty decent. If there is a better tek write it up or point me in the right direction.

I like the diffenent types or names and the different options. I find that they are great for people that dont have much of a background to start with.

I've tried three different extractions straight out of the wiki, step by step. The two I like best that were easy to follow for a noob and get great results were jorkest's BLAB and d'limonene teks.

As a noob, if those individual teks didnt have a name and were not layed out like they are, I wouldnt have had the success I have had.
Anyone feel free to help a noob out with a better tek.

You make some good points Ice House Shaman. Without teks this all might seem too hard and complicated to newcomers so I guess they have their place but at the same time a new tek pops up for something simple like a change in acid or base or solvent or even the order of the steps. So a sticky with a general outline of an a/b process and all the alternative chemicals could be useful to people if they want to work outside the tek a little without another one having to be written. I guess the language of the teks helps too, they don't use too many actual chemistry terms people may be unfamiliar with or worse too lazy to learn.

Mumbles said-


I understand what your saying here. Please understand, no disrespect intended here, most of the people who come to this web site to research and learn how to do an extraction have no desire what so ever become ammature chemists. I imagine I am a prime example of the average person who comes here. I need some spice. I cant just go out and score some. Chemistry doesnt really intrest me, I'm not a lab geek,(jorkest, amor_fati no disrespect intended). I just need the basics to extract some quality spice. I dont really care what a buchner funnel is, it doesnt matter to me what a polar solvent is. I just want some spice for my spiritual needs. I have other hobbies and intrests and not alot of extra time in my life. Call me too lazy to learn or too stupid to learn. I dont want to. I am greatful for fellow nexians like jorkest and amor_fati. They have laid out in plain english quality spice extractions that the average joe can figure out without having to learn a bunch of extra knowledge that I dont need to or care to clutter my brain with. I'm pretty sure that an overwhelming majority of the folks that come to the Nexus would agree. The info is there and easy to find. I dont care if you call the folder its in a sticky or a tek or a handbook or a outline or whatever.

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid!

DreamWaves- I am sincerly sorry for hijacking your thread didnt mean to do that. I happen to really like the BLAB it works, follow the steps and you'll get great results and continue to ask the questions you need answered. Again sorry if I steered your posting off topic.

Swim has obviously spent too much time at sciencemandess and studying =p and has forgotten not everyone finds it as interesting as he does. Keep It Simple Stupid is a good one but he can't help but shake his head at people smoking decidedly ghetto extracts full of lye and metal contaminates but then again thats their choice. Understanding the processes allows you to modify them on the go and solve any problems that pop up but as you said the average joe won't care about that, he just wants spice quick and in a good yield so he follows instructions and gets there. If swim could change only one thing it would have to be people's attitudes towards purity and rank it higher on the list.